Entrance fee for the gunks?

Holy shit you are probably the biggest negative nancy on this site Kevin. It is private land...you got no right to bitch about their fees because you got no right to be on that land!

Be thankful they're good stewards of the land, and even allow anyone to climb there! It's not like they're profiting a ton off of the user fee that you deem exorbitant. Most of that goes back into the preserve for maintenance, liabilities, and other projects that help get fancy city people outside when ordinarily Central Park would be their idea of enjoying nature.

Someone was making the comparison that we have to pay the federal government regardless of whether we use the national park system, and each household pays about 25 bones to the NPS. The irony they pointed out is that this tax, which could essentially be looked at as a member fee, doesn't guarantee us shit! The silly games of congressmen can take our access to OUR land away and we have no recourse.

The gunks, on the other hand, while charging a substantial day use fee, is actually protecting and preserving our access and making things better for climbers...by working with the AAC for the new campground for instance. Plus, if you buy the annual pass and climbed half much as you bitched on mp, it'd be well worth it and you'd find that he amount you're paying per day extrapolated out is next to nothing.

If the Mohonk Preserve really wanted to capitalize on everything it could, it would dissolve itself and sell the land on top of the trapps and nearby areas to NYC millionaires. There would be a house on top of High E and you would then have something to really bitch about. As far as a privately run recreational area is concerned, the gunks are very reasonable wth their fees. Fuck, the gym north of Albany, while awesome, charges 12 bucks to be crowded in an area one millionth the size of the trapps with a bunch of beanie wearing bouldering dipshits screaming every move they do to get attention. Now that's expensive and it's worth is very questionable.

Also PSA: the Adirodacks are closed down too so I would just not go there anymore. Cuomo sold it to the Feds the other day and they shut it down, sucks.

Plenty of points of views. Awesome.

I pay the $90 annually because I enjoy climbing at an area that was beloved by someone that inspires/motivates me: Fritz Weissner.

The history alone (the Vulgarians anyone?, Lynn Hill, Dick W, hair pin turn, etc, etc) is worth my few trips a year.

Jason N. wrote: Looks like the average household is paying $25.45 for the NPS.

Wait, so for $106 dollars ($80 annual pass + above) you get virtually unlimited access (pending govt shutdowns lol) to all of the below parks and for $90 you get what again at the preserve??

•Acadia National Park, Maine
•American Samoa National Park, American Samoa Territory
•Arches National Park, Utah
•Badlands National Park, South Dakota
•Big Bend National Park, Texas
•Biscayne National Park, Florida
•Black Canyon of the Gunnison National Park, Colorado
•Bryce Canyon National Park, Utah
•Canyonlands National Park, Utah
•Capitol Reef National Park Utah
•Carlsbad Caverns National Park, New Mexico
•Channel Islands National Park, California
•Congaree National Park, South Carolina
•Crater Lake National Park, Oregon
•Cuyahoga Valley National Park, Ohio
•Death Valley National Park, California and Nevada
•Denali National Park, Alaska
•Dry Tortugas National Park, Florida
•Everglades National Park, Florida
•Gates of the Arctic National Park, Alaska
•Glacier National Park, Montana
•Glacier Bay National Park, Alaska
•Grand Canyon National Park, Arizona
•Grand Teton National Park, Wyoming
•Great Basin National Park, Nevada
•Great Sand Dunes National Park, Colorado
•Great Smoky Mountains National Park, North Carolina and Tennessee
•Guadalupe Mountains National Park, Texas
•Haleakala National Park, Hawaii
•Hawaii Volcanoes National Park, Hawaii
•Hot Springs National Park, Arkansas
•Isle Royale National Park, Michigan
•Joshua Tree National Park, California
•Katmai National Park, Alaska
•Kenai Fjords National Park, Alaska
•Kings Canyon National Park, California
•Kobuk Valley National Park, Alaska
•Lake Clark National Park, Alaska
•Lassen Volcanic Park, California
•Mammoth Cave Park, Kentucky
•Mesa Verde National Park, Colorado
•Mount Rainier National Park, Washington
•North Cascades National Park, Washington
•Olympic National Park, Washington
•Petrified Forest National Park, Arizona
•Redwood National Park, California
•Rocky Mountain National Park, Colorado
•Saguaro National Park, Arizona
•Sequoia National Park, California
•Shenandoah National Park, Virginia
•Theodore Roosevelt National Park, North Dakota
•Virgin Islands National Park, US Virgin Islands
•Voyageurs National Park, Minnesota
•Wind Cave National Park, South Dakota
•Wrangell-St. Elias National Park, Alaska
•Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming
•Yosemite National Park, California
•Zion National Park, Utah

Really it's preference... I can't justify it in my book. Personally, there's just too much other great climbing within 1 hr of the gunks to justify paying $20 for a day or $90 for the year. Its great if you live local and want an outdoor climbing gym.

Ben Brotelho wrote:Holy shit you are probably the biggest negative nancy on this site Kevin. It is private land...you got no right to bitch about their fees because you got no right to be on that land!

No need for name calling. I wasn't attacking anyone personally so tone it down.

I'm a paying customer, I have ever right to bitch if I feel I'm not getting the quality of product I would expect or feel like I'm being overcharged. How I feel is called an opinion. This is a forum. We share lots of opinion here. Actually, nearly all the content is just opinion.

If they don't want me being a customer they can show me the door. Funny, after years of vocal opposition they still gladly take my annual pass dues every year... so they seem to have less of a problem with my criticism than, say, the average MP know-it-all.

And Ben, really, I've been using the internet for longer than you could type. Please don't tell me what I should and shouldn't post. Free country and all. Last I checked. Yup, still free! If you have a personal problem with me, try PM'ing me. Maybe then you'll realize I'm not the problem.

cant argue there Morgan however relativety (I dont live near MANY of those) and ease (again location based) play a role in my decision to keep funding the Mohonk Preserve (and its million + dollar salary to the "top dog" on the Mohonk food chain...).

If I could constantly have access to even just a few on your list I would frequent the Gunks ALOT less. But I live 4 hours from the Gunks and nowhere near a National Park with rock.

"Wait, so for $106 dollars ($80 annual pass + above) you get virtually unlimited access (pending govt shutdowns lol) to all of the below parks and for $90 you get what again at the preserve?? "

That's not really true, because a lot of national parks ALSO charge entrance fees.

Morgan Patterson wrote: Really it's preference... I can't justify it in my book. Personally, there's just too much other great climbing within 1 hr of the gunks to justify paying $20 for a day or $90 for the year. Its great if you live local and want an outdoor climbing gym.

I'm not-so-local (2-hrs away) but get enough days in that it works out to be less than 2-bucks a day - that's less than the coffee I buy on the way up to climb.

The price is relative - if you pay 120 bucks for a #6 camalot and only climb in the gunks then yeah it's pricy - if you are a vedauwoo local then the 120 is probably well worth it.

If you're visiting the NY area and don't want to cough up the $17 bucks then go hit the powerlines - they're totally free and definitely part of the too much other great climbing within an hour of new paltz - you'd swear you were on gunks rock...

Ben Brotelho wrote:"Wait, so for $106 dollars ($80 annual pass + above) you get virtually unlimited access (pending govt shutdowns lol) to all of the below parks and for $90 you get what again at the preserve?? " That's not really true, because a lot of national parks ALSO charge entrance fees.

That IS true, most Parks are free with the annual pass. All the biggest ones anyway. I know because we have one/use it. Just used ours a couple weeks ago. It wasn't even one of the 'big' ones on that list. National Monuments also count for free access with the annual pass. :-/

I don't know where someone got $25/per US citizen for the cost to fund the NPS. They have a 3 billion budget, divided by 300 million citizens comes out to $10 /citizen. That's flawed math, but at that rate for what it provides I don't think a lot of people complain. The only ones who do usually want the NPS dissoved so they can run their ATVs all over it and build their McMansions on those lands.

when i started climbing here the fee was 2 bucks .i pay for a family membership . this partly goes to land protection the preserve is continually growing this is a good thing .with every land purchess being taken off the tax role the residents of ulster county get to pay that for you so your welcome.pay the fee enjoy the climbing an have fun.

Ben Brotelho wrote:"Wait, so for $106 dollars ($80 annual pass + above) you get virtually unlimited access (pending govt shutdowns lol) to all of the below parks and for $90 you get what again at the preserve?? " That's not really true, because a lot of national parks ALSO charge entrance fees.

Swing and a miss Ben... $80 annual pass covers entrance fee for all if not most of the parks. America the beautiful!

Ed Bustamante wrote:when i started climbing here the fee was 2 bucks .i pay for a family membership . this partly goes to land protection the preserve is continually growing this is a good thing .with every land purchess being taken off the tax role the residents of ulster county get to pay that for you so your welcome.pay the fee enjoy the climbing an have fun.

Um pretty sure the Preserve pays taxes to the govt... All land trusts/preserve do. New York State even has to pay taxes on it's own land... how about that one!

Morgan Patterson wrote: Swing and a miss Ben... $80 annual pass covers entrance fee for all if not most of the parks. America the beautiful!

Oh shit! I misread your post.

chris_vultaggio wrote: I'm not-so-local (2-hrs away) but get enough days in that it works out to be less than 2-bucks a day - that's less than the coffee I buy on the way up to climb.

That's a lot - at least 1 day a week, every week of the year. Add onto that ~$50 in gas round trip so minimum, $1250 (assuming 25 trips) in gas annually.. compared to $90 pass ya.. not too bad I guess.

Morgan Patterson wrote: That's a lot - at least 1 day a week, every week of the year. Add onto that ~$50 in gas round trip so minimum, $1250 (assuming 25 trips) in gas annually.. compared to $90 pass ya.. not too bad I guess.

Cool - I have a parks pass too, I didn't realize it covered my gas when going to the national parks. I'm due in Yosemite in a week - if it's open I'll totally use the parks pass on the way from SFO to fill up the rental car - do I wave it in front of the speedpass sign at Mobil?

Actually I included that to agree with your comment: "The price is relative." Showing that for you, 90 is cheap compared to the thousand bucks + you spend on gas annually to climb there.

Morgan Patterson wrote:Actually I included that to agree with your comment: "The price is relative." Showing that for you, 90 is cheap compared to the thousand bucks + you spend on gas annually to climb there.

^^^^ This.

I'm generally apalled by the tendency in the climbing community to spend $50+ to drive a Tacoma truck (or a big van, etc...) to and from the crag each weekend, but then to balk when asked to spend a small percent of that annually to contribute to the upkeep of their climbing area.

Morgan Patterson wrote: Um pretty sure the Preserve pays taxes to the govt... All land trusts/preserve do. New York State even has to pay taxes on it's own land... how about that one!

24 Revenues from Open Space include property taxes on undeveloped residentially zoned land. All forested land is taxed with the exception of land owned by the Town, the County or non-profit organizations. NY State pays taxes on forested land under its jurisdiction

Mohonk is non for profit your right the state dose pay not the preserve

Simply imagine if the Gunks were free.

Imagine the extra overcrowding and resultant the trash and human waste.

Be careful what you wish for.

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$90 is so little for an entire year of great fun. For many people, that might be the cost of a dinner date, or a pair of approach shoes you don't really need, or expensive rock climbing clothing.

Look at any and all other forms of recreation that you participate in and the attendant costs. (I shrudder to think about my ice climbing habit).

Hell, cancelling your cable bill pays for a year of the gunks in just one month.

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Comparisons to federal parks are straw men. Without fees, perhaps the gunks wouldn't exist, or wouldn't permit climbing.

In that case, we'd have nothing, not a federal park on the ridge.

...

I am thankful that the Mohonk Preserve exists, that they permit climbing, and that they choose to offer recreational opportunities instead of maximizing the economic value of their land through "development."

Some things are worth paying for.

The Mohonk Preserve is Member and Visitor Supported. I'm proud to be part of supporting what the Mohonk Preserve is. There's quite a bit more to it than the climbing, but the climbing is enough.

The MP consists of land that came under protection in a way that is completely unlike almost any other climbing area. Were in not for the land trust, much, if not all, of the land within MP boundaries would be privately held.

I do agree that $17 for a day pass is a lot. But start the clock right now.... keep tabs on your expenditures and see how long it takes to use up $17. Sure, some of us would go a few days - I've gone more than a week without spending $17 in these last few months - but for the bulk of us, $17 gets spent pretty quickly and without a hell of a lot of thought.

I suggest NOT viewing the cost of a day pass as paying $17 for climbing, but for supporting that which is the preserve. Keep your eyes open, and appreciate the plants and wildlife. Is the protection of this habitat not worth supporting? For without the day use fees and memberships it cannot happen.

If you cannot envision that - if all you can see your $17 for is the climbing, then may I suggest that perhaps the MP is not the right place for you?

Kevin Heckeler wrote: Same pro-Gunks B.S., different day.

Same anti-Gunks B.S., different day. NPS is a bargain for us, especially at $24.50/household, but also consider that (1) some farmer in Iowa is paying for parks he'll never use and (2) that is offsetting operations costs for all of us to enjoy. I like it that way, but federal public land isn't the only model of environmental/recreational management.