Delaware Water Gap Climbers

PosiDave wrote:If you read any website or guidebook for NJ it clearly states two things when climbing No Bolting, Chipping, Etc. without permission from the park rangers

OK so here's a website for NJ:
www.mountainproject.com/v/new-jersey/106374428
I don't see anything there about No Bolting.

PosiDave wrote:
> "The law also clearly states ..."

Where in the laws of NJ does it state that? The laws of the state of New Jersey up on the web - like
here
So how about just post a link to the page of paragraph which says what you claim it says.

Ken

Kenr,

You can find access to the Administrative code via this website.

state.nj.us/dep/legal/get_r…

remember that a bolt is considered a "permanent fixture"

Also

nj.gov/dep/parksandforests/…

njskylands.com/odhike_rockc…

It will ask that you download a waiver, If you contact the park office of any park where climbing is allowed they will tell you bolting or permanent altercations are in fact against park policy in NJ via the Administrative code. The old Access Fund state coordinator covered this on RC.com and multiple sites. Local parks fall under their own policy.

If you also must know, Most parks in NJ do not allow you to alter mountain bike trails without approval. Jorba usually holds these trail days, Allaire state park is governed under ATUG, Hartshorne, Clayton, Huber Woods do not allow any modifications to trails without approval of the park rangers due to liability issues.

I understand you want me to read through hundreds of pages and buy you the book. But you are not a child, you can do this on your own and it isn't even that hard. Sorry to sound insulting but that attitude is the reason NJ has these stupid laws in place. NJ law makers do not care if it is a bolt or spray paint. you are making a permanent altercation to existing public land which is illegal.

If you really want to go about it the right way it would be to contact Thomson Ling (via the Access Fund site) and ask him about a clear bolting policy. I have contacted him and asked if he is still the regional coordinator and if not I will gladly become the coordinator and help you with legally adding bolts. (I do in fact support them)

PosiDave wrote:
> ... park policy in NJ via the Administrative code

So apparently you have no evidence of a Law of NJ which forbids bolts.
You appeal instead to the NJ State Parks administrative code. (Actually it's not clear if the code permits rock climbing at all, never mind bolts).

But the New Jersey / Mt Tammany side of Delawater Water Gap is not a NJ State Park, so really that code does not apply to this thread on DWG.

It's important that whatever the restriction is (we still haven't gotten a link to the specific text) is an Administrative rule, not a Statute, because it's generally easier to get an exception (or even change) to an Administrative rule. Indeed one NJ climbing guidebook suggests that an "exception" for a certain aspect of climbing (no mention of bolting) has sometimes been made in the past.

I note also that there's nothing said anywhere in any rule or statute like, "If bolts or other permanent fixtures are ever placed without exception permission on a rock-climbing area at State park, that area shall be closed to climbing." Surely it makes more sense for the managers of a particular Park to just arrange for the bolts to be removed - (if they even care).

PosiDave wrote:
> ... Local parks fall under their own policy.

Thanks for clarifying that, since some rock climbing in New Jersey is done on public land (e.g. local county or city parks) which is not a State park. This applies to all the climbing in NJ I've done in the past two years.

my thoughts:

• Destroying bolts placed by other climbers really doesn't have much to do with preventing climbing areas from being closed. Of the two areas I've heard that have been explicitly closed, bolts had nothing to do with it.
• Talk to local climbers: Otherwise you can have no idea what "exceptions" they have arranged with the managers of particular park, exceptions which could be explicit or maybe unspoken. And you can't know what strategy the local climbers have for maintaining access.

Ken

NPS actually says to contact the specific park about bolting.

Administrative Code is enforceable. Bolting falls under permanent altercations to public property and was why I was told it is against the law (unless you obtain written permission by park rangers)

As for being a "local" I in fact live and climb in NJ. I have worked at climbing gyms, guide service, and was a manager of bigger outdoor shop. I dealt with the Access Fund and plenty of organizations in the Cycling & climbing communities as well as worked with Park Rangers. I don't know your background but you seem to just want to play the Ignorance is Bliss card.

I will give everyone the benefit of knowledge and will call the Park service at DWG and will provide a answer and what ranger it came from. Instead of arguing.

Dave, I've already got some communications with the park service regarding perm rap anchors. I was dealing with Al Ambler, who handles the falcon closures, he has forwarded the issue up the chain at the park.

I've got some free time tomorrow evening and will be in the area. Anyone want to meet at Minsi by the cold air cave around 6pm and scope things out, clean the trail up, and maybe fire off a quick route?

I just heard back from the nps regarding fixed anchors. They could not give me a "feeling" on if they would approve new fixed anchors or not, however, I was directed to send any request to:

Superintendent John J. Donahue
Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area
1978 River Road Bushkill PA 18324

I would be happy to write up any such request. I think it should be thorough and include the current state, the reason for the desired change, the impact (visual, safety, environmental, nature of climb, etc), alternatives to the change, community support, etc.

That should help end our "bolting is illegal" discussion and get us back on cleaning routes. If you want to bolt something, the above is how to get it approved by the park service.

Anyone been to Minsi since it reopened? I'll be going tomorrow evening if anyone would like to join.

Hey Larry,
I'm up for that. See you later.

Tony

Thanks to Tony's help today, the climber's trail has been cleaned all the way from the cold air cave to boca roca grande.

Awesome work guys!

Climbed and did a little maintenance on drifting arrow (all three pitches) and surprise today. The mid rap anchor on surprise is missing at the moment.

So... what routes to clean/work on next here? any suggestions? I'm thinking: Espresso - 5.8+ on the practice face (mostly clean, couple of new birch bushes on P2), Point of No Return 5.8 on Land of Giants (route 34 in the falcon guide - bottom is very overgrown, but doable), and Morning Wall - 5.9/5.10 (approach for this up Hidden Passage looks like a 100 foot vertical jungle)

Anyone been on any of these?

Weather and wife permitting, i'm looking to head up to minsi tomorrow afternoon to try and clean a route. I need a partner, any takers? Thinking "Point of No Return" or "hidden passage" up to the base of morning wall.

Cleaned up the base of "Point of No Return" today. Also temporarily left a fixed line on Hidden Passage to facilitate some route cleaning and access to morning wall. It's hung off the bolted anchor for morning wall. Line should be down in a week or two.

Larry - next weekend, Sunday 7/7, I'm free if you want to head on up there and do some cleaning/climbing.

Reviving the thread. Anyone up for the gap tomorrow (saturday)? Looks like the morning is clear, but chance of some rain in the afternoon. Shoot me a PM or leave me a message here.

I left some gear at the base of Osprey Saturday 10/12/13. 2 locking biners and a BD ATC guide. Anyone found them?

Also has anyone climbed Hell and High Water recently? I herd it was a good climb but the Falcon Guide says its X/R due to lose rock, Is this true?

10/26 I'll answer my own questions: my gear was still there.

hell and high water still has lots of scary lose rock

I will be in the Water Gap area this coming week (10-28 to 10-31, maybe later), with my (non-climbing) wife. I've never climbed there, and would like to get a day or half day with someone at least vaguely familiar with it.

I have 35 yrs experience with trad climbing, mostly in the East. I expect to onsight 9s and lower at the Gunks these days. I will have a rope and 'standard' rack.

Mon thru Wed look good weatherwise at the moment.

Thanks.

If you plan on staying later I might be able to join you on Sunday 11/3 for a few hours. Been climbing at The Gap for over 2 years.

10/29/13 @ 0825am

Hey man, sorry. No can do for this weekend. Best of luck and enjoy this good weather. There's some pretty good info posted on here for some of the more popular routes. Definitely recommned the PA side (Mt Minsi) as it's a little quieter than NJ side (Mt Tammany).

Latro wrote:I will be in the Water Gap area this coming week (10-28 to 10-31, maybe later), with my (non-climbing) wife. I've never climbed there, and would like to get a day or half day with someone at least vaguely familiar with it. I have 35 yrs experience with trad climbing, mostly in the East. I expect to onsight 9s and lower at the Gunks these days. I will have a rope and 'standard' rack. Mon thru Wed look good weatherwise at the moment. Thanks.

Wish i could, i've got work and a kitchen remodel going on.