The Garden of the Gods Destroyed!

Not sure who did it.

This route was fine. One piece to protect the fall at the start would have been much better than a "Retro-bolting".

I'll say this and leave it here.

Stewart says he didn't do it I believe him.

That means somebody has been doing this behind his back and I'm sure he's more upset then I am about the issue.

J Q wrote:It's the shininess of the bolts you see; they make righteous eyes burn. ... Everyone knows that men only climb on hand forged rings drilled by hand that are at least twenty years old.

Personally before placing any bolts I age them for a few years in a stew of salt, de-ionized water, and sulfuric acid. It gives them a nice patina of corrosion and ensures that they'll break when loaded, just like Matt wants.

Seriously, if this is about the bolt I'm thinking it's about: get over it. It's a great addition to prevent a minor tragedy. I would wager that, over the lifespan of this new bolt, it will save at least one trip to the E.R. with a compound tib/fib fracture (or worse). If you chop it, consider yourself an accessory to the future injuries that could be prevented by this bolt.

As for the "climbing is dangerous" brigade. Sure it is. There's no such thing as a safe fall. Which is why I'm sure those brigadiers free-solo everything: protection is for the weak and de-testicled. Which, surely, they are not.

One more thing: I think I know who placed this bolt. If you're reading this: right on! The next time I get to the Springs I'm gonna get on A.S. with gratitude; if not, as Mr. Matt Testicles Bruton would have it, fortitude.

And now for my asbestos suit...

Well I was up there the other day doing laps on Bobs Buttress.

I saw the new bolts on Monster Mash which I was told Stewart and Brian put up. The first bolt is in an dubious placement (would need a long draw to get over the ledge) but otherwise it looks good.

I also saw the rebolting of Alligator Soup and I completely agree with Stitch in an earlier post about the first bolt, you can either reach down and clip it or just stand up, make one/two easy moves and clip the second. Most people that I see climb the route just clip the second bolt because of poor placement of the first (maybe something broke off on the first part which made the placement of the original first bolt make sense). As for the rest of the climb, the bolts which were already there were perfectly safe and the crux was very well protected.

About the comment about cutting down the other bolts: Since the renegade who put up the new bolts cut all the old ones, I'm not really sure what that would achieve anything other than making a statement that their is a process for changing out the bolts.

But the comment about the Garden being Destroyed is completely over the top, but Matt does make some valid points - Their is a process to replace/add bolts and climbers should abide by that system. If they don't like the process they should get on the committee and work to sway opinion instead of doing their own thing.

I have an idea who retrobolted Alligator Soup but will not say anything unless I definitely know something. It is wild hair actions like this though that can and will get climbing limited in the Garden of the Gods. I'm all about preserving our climbing freedoms and really, climbers have pretty free rein out there to climb whatever they want.

The actions of anyone, however, who feels they have the right to go out and slam new bolts in, to chop old bolts, and to do any other renegade actions make us climbers look bad in the eyes of the city. Like I previously wrote, climbing is a managed process at the Garden of the Gods now and we need to work through the proper channels to ensure that we can continue climbing out there without limitations.

The process is to sit down with the head of the park and talk about what needs to be done, as well as to talk to the park ranger. It's only being responsible and being accountable for your actions. It is important to remember that the Garden of the Gods is a registered National Historic Landmark as well as one of the most popular and beloved visitor attractions in Colorado, so our actions as climbers are front and center and could be rescinded.

I haven't been up to see the retrobolting of Alligator Soup but if additional bolts have been added, besides relocating that stupid first one, then I'm of the opinion that they should be removed and the holes filled. I have written to my old climbing buddy Leonard Coyne in Australia who did the first ascent of the route to ask for his thoughts.

As I stated previously, climbing there is a privilege, not a right. Let's be good park users and keep our climbing freedoms.

Stewart M. Green wrote: As far as this fellow's allegation that I or someone else retrobolted Alligator Soup, he is just plain wrong. I haven't been up to see the route yet but will go climb it this week and see if it was indeed retrobolted

Classic MP contradictions! Get your Facts before you preach people!!

The bolts and hangers are the same size and brand as the 9 or 10 on End to End's full retro-bolting and Sandy Monster's. S.M. is the only one IMHO that was done well. (other then the first piece, and original ring piton anchors)

Chopping Alligator Soup and "filling" the holes should not even be an option!

I say it sucks but leave it alone and walk away.

Stewart M. Green wrote:I have an idea who retrobolted Alligator Soup but will not say anything unless I definitely know something.

If you have some time and want a good read,, these are just a few postings by Stewart on the subject at hand.

All I'm saying is we the climbers ought not rely on one Person telling us what we can and can't climb and how to climb it or how much we must pay them or others to climb it.

I don't hate you Stewart, I just don't fully trust your motives.

That seems fair to me. Have a read and come to your own conclusions.

By Stewart M. Green
Aug 18, 2012

Brian Shelton and I, along with David Mason and Robb Conner, took out the old pitons and rebolted Sandy Monster and End to End with beefy new bolts. Some of the angles were solid, but most came out without too much work. So climb on.... Thanks, Dave and Robb, for buying the hardware!

By Stewart M. Green
Aug 18, 2012

Brian Shelton and I, along with David Mason and Robb Conner, took out the old pitons and rebolted Sandy Monster and End to End with beefy new bolts. Some of the angles were solid, but most came out without too much work. So climb on.... Thanks, Dave and Robb, for buying the hardware!

By Stewart M. Green
Jul 22, 2004

Yes, a new bolt now protects the first part of Potholes. It was placed by local climbers working with the Park and Rec Department to improve safety on some of the popular Garden routes. Every year at least one leader breaks an ankle by falling onto the sidewalk. This new bolt will rectify that situation. Also we are replacing the hanger this next Saturday morning with an enviro hanger and painting the bolt. It appears someone was messing with the current bolt and twisted it sideways.

By Stewart M. Green
Aug 2, 2004

The original piton was 10 feet off the ground directly on the northeast corner of Red Twin Spire. The original route went directly up here to the potholes. The way it is climbed now is up the series of steps to the left and then back right.

We chose to put in a 6" long, 1/2" wedge bolt which will last much longer than a drilled piton. The jury is out in terms of the long-term strength of glue-in bolts in sandstone. I did read a study regarding construction bolt anchors 2 weeks ago that said the average life of a 3/8" bolt in concrete was 25 years, while the average life of a 1/2" bolt was 100 years.

I totally understand that people want the adventure factor in climbing and many many routes exist in the Garden with a lot of "hair factor" --long runouts, sparse or non-existent protection, and high chances of a groundfall......I don't see anyone retro-bolting these adventure routes or bringing the commitment level they require down to merely human levels. Heck, it's a commitment for most "average" climbers to get to the first bolt on pitch 1 of West Point Crack.

It is important for climbers to understand that the fixed gear in the Garden of the Gods is wearing out. Many of the old Army angle pitons are 30 to 50 years ago. It's in the best interest of climbers that many of these time-bomb pieces are replaced.

By Stewart M. Green
Sep 12, 2007

The bottom bolt on Potholes was replaced on Monday, September 10 by Brian Shelton and Stewart Green with a 4-inch-long, 1/2-inch stainless steel Petzl eyebolt. The previous 1/2-inch bolt had slowly worked loose (although it still took a lot of work to extricate it from the hole) over the last 3 years. It was loosened in 2004 after being in place only a few days when someone decided to try to remove it (see above thread), but all they succeeded in doing was making it unsafe. The new glue-in is a better alternative.

By Stewart M. Green
Oct 2, 2007

Yep, someone pulled the glue-in bolt out a few days after it was set. Now there is the possibility that Potholes may be closed and all the fixed protection removed because of the increased risk of someone hitting the sidewalk and breaking a leg. The bolt was originally placed to avoid that scenario. The city parks dept. was getting tired of having a climber fall off that route once or twice a year and breaking a leg. They recommended that we add a bolt or the route would be closed.

Anyone have suggestions on how to handle this situation??? It seems that some dumbs*** wants to ruin it for all climbers. I know that a small Alien can be placed behind a fragile flake down low, but who, of all the folks who usually climbs Potholes, carries an Alien let alone owns one?? Right now I'm feeling that if the fixed protection can't be left alone, then the route should be pulled and the holes filled in.

matt bruton wrote: Have a read and come to your own conclusions.

Sounds like Stewart here is doing the climbing community a great favor. Keep up the good work!

The Garden is a choss pile anyway.

SDY wrote: Sounds like Stewart here is doing the climbing community a great favor. Keep up the good work!

+1

GMBurns wrote:The Garden is a choss pile anyway.

YES!! Sorta like Eldo. Yeah, I said it.

Stewart Green has done a great deal of good for the climbing community in Colorado Springs. I'm not a very good climber, and certainly no expert on bolting, but I do climb on occasion in the Garden -- and every bolt that I've seen Stewart replace in the Garden really needed replacing! Thank you for your service, Stewart!

immunizer wrote: I think I know who placed this bolt. If you're reading this: right on! The next time I get to the Springs I'm gonna get on A.S. with gratitude; if not, as Mr. Matt Testicles Bruton would have it, fortitude. And now for my asbestos suit...

If folks can't do the simple traverse to bolt 1, they don't deserve to be on Alligator Soup. Like Stewart said, the route was fine. I definitely support any chopping and filling by Mr. Green. And to call someone an "accessory" to any subsequent injuries? Gimme a break. It's easy to tell before you get on the route whether you have what it takes to make the traverse.

Yawn.

I'm old enough that I think safely protected routes = good routes. I'm way past trying to prove my manhood on groundfall routes and have few enough climbing days left to waste some due to injuries on pointlessly run-out routes. If that invalidates my man-card, so be it. Thanks and good work Stewart! I'd rather be responsible for someone getting their panties in a twist than someone getting their shin-bones in a twist.

Wow, I can not believe someone is complaining about good stewardship. Kudos to all of the selfless individuals who skip a day to go climbing and instead replace aging hardware in the Garden, Shelf, and the Splatte.

It's a low level of risk, especially considering the crux of the climb is considerably more difficult and, as previously mentioned, well protected. It has nothing to do with bravado, testicles, man cards, etc. It's about preserving the historical integrity that's part of what makes the Garden a special place. If you don't like it, stick clip.

Matt,
Your "Garden of the Gods Destroyed!" thread is plumb retarded. You really have no idea what you are talking about. Your story's full of holes and lacks content. Nothing more than unreasonable, unjustified, and uneducated BS. I feel sorry that you don't have anything more important to do than plague the Colorado Springs climbing community with your insignificant gumby banter. You are the reason that some people should not have children. Stewart and Brian have provided an excellent voluntary service to keep the Garden of the Gods open to climbing and "The City" off climber's backs! I guess you would rather someone die falling on a piece of eroded homemade hardware from the 1950's and climbing permanently shut down?? The Garden is an over glorified choss pile to begin with, and I'm sorry you disagree, but equipment placed in such soft sandstone rock requires replacement and continual analysis. Choss pile or not, the fact further remains that the Garden is a "fun" area to climb that IS IN A CITY PARK and a popular area for beginners. As a responsible climbing community, it is our job as climbers to maintain the safety of well-traveled routes the same way roads are maintained for the safety of motorists to prevent tragic accidents from occurring. Regardless of your disagreement, climbing in a city park is most certainly a privilege that can be taken away. If you don't want to be told want to do, move to a foreign country with less government influence on recreation. You preach of ethics, but I guarantee that no first ascensionist these days give a rat's ass if an unsafe time-bomb bolt/pin they placed decades ago is replaced!! This is not the 70's. Ethics have changed and believe it or not vary from area to area! The old-timers didn't bolt the Garden's routes to be death routes, they simply used the best protection of the era to protect first ascents they wanted to make. Exactly how many first ascents have you done? You claim that Stewart has "no apparent skill or knowledge of route finding". Really bro you sound stupid. First off, what does route finding have to do with replacing an existing bolt placement to begin with? Second, what have you accomplished that warrants you even make such a ridiculous accusation?? I know Stewart has made literally hundreds of first ascents and climbed many THOUSANDS of routes in countless areas in many countries. I do know for a fact that he is more qualified than you by light years to be making decisions on what is best to preserve ethics and make routes reasonably safe(Yes I'm coming at this from a safety standpoint as well!). Stewart was climbing cutting edge first ascents while you were still in diapers sucking the bottle(And judging by your demonstration of lack of intellect, it was probably a liquor bottle). "These routes will never be the same again!" Really dude? Guess what they ARE still the SAME! The rock didn't change. If you had more experience, you'd already know that climbing is about ascending rock faces in the cleanest style possible as a personal pursuit for enjoyment. Bolts and protection are only there for those not willing to risk death for a rock climb. I have soloed 5.12 and on-sight soloed 5.11+, try that if you want to make climbing dangerous to the standards you feel it should be! And guess what there bolts and I skipped them! Novel concept! Stewart has not altered any routes(to disappoint your distorted view of reality)and Stewart most certainly has not retro-bolted a damn thing! Replacing unsafe hardware is routine maintenance. I'm sorry for you that the first ascensionists did not hand-drill 1/2" glue-in bolts on lead in the 50's. Of course then you wouldn't have anything to bitch about now would you. It's a pain in the arse enough to buy new hardware out of pocket and take the time/effort to replace unsafe bolts and anchors in the first place, let alone to catch flack about it from a WANABE like you! It is, however, worth it for the 99% of the climbing community that that greatly appreciate the gracious and selfless action. If you want to test your manhood and be a stud, then you should seriously be soloing all these routes anyway. Furthermore, go disgrace the South Platte with your presence and climb some classics on 1/4" Star bolts or head to Colorado National Monument and tick some scary classics that can't be made safe due to National Park Service law. You call Stewart the Mad Hatter. Ok well I guess that makes you a maggot, yes not even a worm! If you want your inexperienced opinion to be voiced, Mountain Project is not the forum. Join the committee like anyone else who cares enough to make a difference in the future of this historical area. If you want to start shit, you can voice your opinion to me face to face next time I am town and we'll see what good comes of that. Trust me, you don't want to beef with this "Green Goblin". Let me put it in Garden dialect for you, Mighty Thor's gonna drink some Rocket Fuel and bring the hammer down on you 'till you're crushed into Alligator Soup and then eat you with a Silver Spoon. Do us all a favor bro and keep your lowly heart-broken backside out of the Garden. Instead, why don't you stick to making winter ascents of avalanche prone Fourteeners until Mother Earth takes of you for us! And perhaps you should "play in traffic" as well! Additionally, stop worrying about climbers that care about preserving the future of the areas you frequent and the safety/well-being of other fellow climbers! Instead get job, buy a razor and a new pair of jeans so maybe you'll look respectable enough for someone to actually take you seriously. "I don't hate you Stewart, I just don't fully trust your motives" You say..... Well after reading your idiotic comments, I can say I for one don't like you and I definitely don't trust your motives! The Garden of the Gods is not destroyed. All that should be destroyed is your pitiful tiny bottom feeding ego for conceiving such an ignorant post to begin with! Good Day and Good Riddance(We All Hope)!

As for Stewart, keep up the good work pops and don't let "Wack Matt the Rabbit Skat" get you down!!!!!!

Ian,

I don't care what you think of me, or if you try to kick my ass in person.

I never said Stewart did this!

Your Dad said he did not do the Retro, and got very upset when he found out it had happened.

You have both done loads of good in colorado and many other states as far as the climbing community is concerned, and for that I thank you.

"Garden of the Gods Destroyed!" is an over dramatic title, used to bring immediate attention to this issue.
Stewart Green has been climbing long enough and has been in the line of fire enough times to defend himself from a maggot like me for one Alleged accusation of retro bolting in "The Destroyed Choss Pile of The Gods"

If he doesn't take this particular issue further I'd be surprised.

Don't be so dramatic.

Also, I like Spider Man, and had just watched Alice in Wonderland the day before so those two were the first bad guys that popped into my head when writing the OP. My apologies for not thinking of better ones that might not be instantly associated with Stewart.

Stewart,

I hope quoting your previous posts was not offensive. People online tend to have a limited view of the big picture, and easily get off track, missing the point and too often the opportunity for a solution. You and others have done great work in the garden and some shitty work (Sandstone choss and all). Whoever did this, however used the same hardware as your last two retros. who would have done it? How can we get the climbing community involved in this in hopes that it not worsen to the point of no return?
If you care as much as I hope you do then you understand my dramatic online approach.

As far as your motives I don't trust That one is on me.

I can't believe that someone actually got on got on MP to bitch about someone working with the city to make routes safe and keep climbing areas open. This is ridiculous.

This thread is as dramatic as the title.
Keep up the good work Stewart! We need people like you who work to keep climbing safe and allowed by working on the rock and with city officials.

Step hen wrote: If folks can't do the simple traverse to bolt 1, they don't deserve to be on Alligator Soup. I definitely support any chopping and filling by Mr. Green. And to call someone an "accessory" to any subsequent injuries? Gimme a break. It's easy to tell before you get on the route whether you have what it takes to make the traverse.

I'm glad people like you are out there to tell everyone what they deserve and don't deserve. I'll be sure to ask you what the criteria are for whether or not I deserve my next climb.

I once watched a 5.11 climber blow the first clip on a 5.7 at Table Mountain. I happened to be in the right place to catch him (i.e., with my arms - not a rope). Nobody thought he would blow the clip. It never occurred to any of us. And I certainly wasn't spotting him. I just happened to be walking by when I looked up and saw a climber flying down at me. Perhaps he didn't deserve to be on that route. Or, perhaps, everyone makes mistakes - everyone. Even you. Perhaps it will be your leg that's saved - or not. But I suggest you take your holier-than-thou attitude and shove it up your, err, chalk-bag. If you chop the bolt you're responsible for any injury that bolt might have prevented.