Acceptance of death and climbing

To answer you Rob: I do free solo. I have a passion for multi-pitch free soloing. I also have soloed at Pond Bank! Cool man. What a great place.

Maybe I'm not as socialized as I think but death is not a common topic amongst me and my friends/family. It is popular within myself though (I like "studying" death and pondering it and the unknown)

Some of your more glossy and poetic climbing mags seem to mention death almost every page. Whether you accept it or not, it's going to happen. What puts me off is what I perceive as its glorification.

It seems almost nihilistic to me.

Wannabe wrote:Death is definitely not okay to me. I intellectually understand that I'm choosing to engage in an activity that increases my risk of death but I'm certainly not okay with it. Having a young child only made me even less okay with it. The only reason I continue to climb is that I feel its benefits for my life and by extension my loved ones outweigh the risks. The clarity and singlemindedness I can have while climbing are hard for me find elsewhere. The discipline and thoughtfulness about my actions, my partners and my objectives have spilled over into other areas of my life slowly. Climbing, mistakes made while climbing and their consequences are very real, and they're real in a way that's hard to duplicate in much of my life. I really value these things. I've thought about it and I'm not sure I could give up climbing but let's say I could. My suspicion is that my family would have to get accustomed to living with a person who was less happy, less dynamic and was learning and growing less. Maybe that's a trade they'd make after the fact if I'm killed at some point but its not a trade I'm ready to make at this point. All that having been said I do feel a tremendous responsibility to my child to not act in a haphazard or cavalier way while climbing. I certainly think its impacted the grade that I will lead at. I always want to feel a comfort zone between what I know is my physical limit and what I'm leading when on gear. So while I think I've accepted that I may die while climbing my efforts to avoid dying while climbing have also impacted my climbing. Not much of a samurai mindset is it? --Wannabe

great post

There may also be an element of the belief by many people that they have control over there lives. People that think it's dangerous perceive a loss of control while soloist feel in complete control (ideally). Reality is that we have very little control over what happens in our lives.

It's also important to consider that climbing is mostly a selfish pursuit that serves to satisfy the desires of the mind/ego. There is little true "spiritual" fulfillment in climbing or likely any other selfish activities. That's not to say these experiences aren't worth while or maybe part of the "point" of life.

All things become objects in our minds even ourselves. The mind seeks to control these objects and to loose the life is the ultimate threat to the mind.

I guess I am not connecting acceptance of death and climbing. What's the connection?

David Barbour wrote:Is driving a car worth your death?

Good point.

Under some circumstances driving to and from a climbing area might be as risky as the climbing itself.

Prior to having a kid, I thought about it occasionally. Now that I have a young son, I think about it constantly. I hope this doesn't change, because no matter how much I enjoy climbing and all the positive ways it influences my life, it isn't worth dying over (for me).

+1 Wannabe's reply. More or less, the way I look at it.

A strange thought that often pops in my head: I hope to be climbing strong in 20 years from now, so that I can eventually attempt harder/riskier climbs (again, for me) since my kid(s) will be grown up. The responsibility of parenthood really weighs on me.

I would be very interested to see these statistics that compare climbing risk to driving risk. I would guess that there are far too many variables involved in both activities to compare them usefully, at least at the individual level (which, to all of us, is really all that matters). Seems like info that would be best suited for insurance companies. I am very skeptical that the average driver is subjected to more lifetime risk than the average (outdoors) climber.

Wannabe - great post man.

I found it funny that as I read the name of this post; I thought ' I don't fear dying at all, I fear pain and paralysis but not death one bit'. But I wonder just how true that knee-jerk reaction was. I have no kids, mortgage or real responsibilities at all (and that is not an accident); No one would be worse off in this world with my theoretical passing aside from the grieving of those I love, yet the more I imagined someone scraping bits of me off a cliff the more I realized that I guess I am at least a little afraid of dying. Its more of an amorphous fear then anything intellectual. I can't quite put my finger on what bugs me about the thought of not being here, but something does. So I guess my stance on the OP's question is that - I am such a complete wuss at soioing because ;despite my best efforts; I truly am afraid and un-accepting of death and for that reason I can't hack it.
Gotta say, I hope I bump into a soloist just so I can pick his/her brains and find out just how they feel about their work.

Mike Oxlong wrote: Reality is that we have very little control over what happens in our lives.

Say what? I don't know why I'm typing this!!! WTF!!! AAAAHH!!!

If that's what you need to comfort yourself on a runout or solo... I dunno. I was destined/pre-determined to die today? Yeah, okay.

Jason Kim wrote:Seems like info that would be best suited for insurance companies. I am very skeptical that the average driver is subjected to more lifetime risk than the average (outdoors) climber.

Insurance companies put their money where their mouth is, to the tune of billions of dollars per anum. I can't think of any more emphatic understanding of risk, aside from personal acceptance of death.

Matt N wrote: Is driving? Is crossing a street? Is leaving the house? We all draw the line somewhere.

Matt N got the crux of the situation here.

My perspective is that risk behavoir needs to be adapted to the situation. For example, I have 5 children. When they we young I reduced my risk level. It was the responsible thing to do. Now they are adults, and I push it to the edge again.

I know a world class climber who has taken just that same approach. "No more 8,000 meter peaks, my daughter was just born".

To me the risk I was trying to reduce was not dying, I was not seeing my children grow up.

Idaho Bob

Steve House's monologue in the short film Shattered is really telling on the subject. He says "is there a fear more profound than death? My greatest fear is that I'm unworthy of being loved".

Timothy.Klein wrote: Insurance companies put their money where their mouth is, to the tune of billions of dollars per anum. I can't think of any more emphatic understanding of risk, aside from personal acceptance of death.

There are far too many variables involved to categorically claim that one activity is any more dangerous than the other, unless you're assessing these risks within the context of a single person. My climbing vs. my driving. Insurance companies are good at assessing group risk. Individual risk, much less so. In any case, there's no point comparing the multi-billion dollar auto insurance industry to a virtually non-existent climbing insurance industry.

The auto insurance industry is able to come up with a fairly accurate understanding of lifetime risk of injury and death for most drivers. If a large climbing insurance industry existed, it might be able to do the same. Unfortunately, it does not.

everyone dies ... its what you do in life that matters ...

dont regret it ;)

There's a big fallacy in the "Car verses climbing logic". Just because driving a car is dangerous doesn't make climbing safe. Truth is, we all drive almost everyday. But climbers also participate in an additional dangerous activity everyday (if we're lucky!). If you drive AND climb, you're more at risk of dying than someone who doesn't climb. Don't try to kid yourself.

I get more anxiety from driving in rush hour traffic then on a run-out josh slab. I know what to expect from a whipper But I'm not sure what happens if I fly under a semi.

aaron hope wrote:There's a big fallacy in the "Car verses climbing logic". Just because driving a car is dangerous doesn't make climbing safe. Truth is, we all drive almost everyday. But climbers also participate in an additional dangerous activity everyday (if we're lucky!). If you drive AND climb, you're more at risk of dying than someone who doesn't climb. Don't try to kid yourself.

People who don't climb do things that are probably as dangerous as climbing, too.

Look at this-- broad statistics, so generally useless, but on average rock climbing is relatively safe...

medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier…

Swimming, Cycling, Running, all have more deaths per activity than rock climbing. Even 'Sudden cardiac arrest while running a marathon' is higher up than climbing.

What about the people that absolutely do nothing, eat terribly, smoke, drink, etc. That's got to have overall more risk than most sports I know.

Safer than table-tennis is in Germany?!?! Whaaaaaaat?

I'll chime in on this one: Disagree with any of the statistics because they're flawed. Sure running is inherently dangerous but it also builds cardiac strength, reduces stress levels, etc. etc. You can make this argument for a car...with a car you drive to work, if you can work, maybe you're getting health insurance with the health insurance you can get medical care...My overall point is these statistics don't take into account a world without these things because those experiments are nearly impossible to regulate. Just my 2cents...oh yeah and death scares the bejesus outta me.

Travis Haussener wrote:I'll chime in on this one: Disagree with any of the statistics because they're flawed. Sure running is inherently dangerous but it also builds cardiac strength, reduces stress levels, etc. etc. You can make this argument for a car...with a car you drive to work, if you can work, maybe you're getting health insurance with the health insurance you can get medical care...My overall point is these statistics don't take into account a world without these things because those experiments are nearly impossible to regulate. Just my 2cents...oh yeah and death scares the bejesus outta me.

Climbing doesn't build strength and reduce stress? What about driving through traffic causing stress?

Those statistics are about accidents. Not overall impact on your life. Do you know, overall, if you're younger, what your death will likely be? An accident. Be it car, climbing, bike, running, etc. That's what I think what we're all getting at here I think... death by accident, and comparing people's hobbies.

If you climb on the weekends or bike on weekends, yet have exact same jobs, with the exact same commute, eat the same diet, and are clones of eachother, you will more likely die biking.

Personally, mountain biking scares me much more than climbing... Mountain biking is the most dangerous thing I do-- Less of a death risk, IMO, but much higher risk of crippling injuries.

Yeah, yeah, statistics are broad numbers, not individual cases, but they do have their place in evaluating risks and such.

I still can't get past that statistically, more people die per player from playing table-tennis in Germany than people die per climber in the UK.... Hahah.

Next time I get a solid placement I'll think to myself, "Welp, that's safer than playing table-tennis in Germany!"