Why stretching is stupid.

reboot wrote: If that's the case, it follows that you should stretch BEFORE the workout IF you intend to utilize the increased ROM during the workout: you stretch pre-workout to increase ROM temporarily, then during workout you exercise that ROM & the elevated body temp will make that ROM more permanent. The alternative is you don't temporarily increase ROM before workout, so you never physiologically learn how to use larger ROM & then you stretch after the workout & it doesn't do squat. Sounds like gymnastics, ballerinas, martial artists have been doing it right all along.

That's the thing, when you stretch (statically) before the workout, you don't actually get much range of motion. So there's not much to make permanent because the tissues don't elongate much.

Also, as a former ballet dancer, I did not statically stretch before class very much if at all. I did do a lot of dynamic range of motion warm-up. As did my classmates. We did partner static stretches at the end of class.

reboot wrote:For those that advocate static stretch after workout, what is it supposed to do, help recovery, increase flexibility? To me, it seems for increasing flexibility, you'd want to do stretching before workout to incorporate the temporary increased ROM into the workout.

We all know what a massive pump feels like. We all know how rock hard our forearms get after a hard training session. It's almost like they are in a spasm. Think about the amount of time and energy it takes to produce that. Think about how contracted your muscles have to be for your forearms to feel like that. Don't you think it makes sense to help them return back to their normal state before you go home and sit in front of the computer? Stretch them out, loosen them up.

Muscle recovery begins immediately, and it is during recovery that they get bigger and stronger. The recovery period can last anywhere from 24-72 hours and during that time you should be both dynamically and statically stretching to keep your muscles long and flexible. You want your big muscles to be flexible. Look what happens to rubber bands when they are overstretched. Same thing happens to muscles.

Even though you can find research that says it doesn't prevent soreness, I can say that without a doubt it DOES help prevent soreness in my body. If I come in from a long run and don't stretch my quads, hamstrings and lower back, I will be more sore the next day. No amount of research can change that fact.

Another reason I recommend people do it after exercise is that it is just a good cool down. We all know that cooling down is essential. You don't just fall off your last red-point burn and get right in the car do you? You really should do another route, but most people don't. But at least you have a walk back to the car. Stretching can help people slowly relax, get back into a normal breathing pattern - for me it's almost like a meditation and reflection on whatever it is I've just done.

If you don't want to stretch, just don't stretch (not having a go at you reboot, just saying). But please will people stop trying to justify the fact that they don't like stretching by citing some random internet article? I can find research on the internet to back up any theory I can possible dream up. That doesn't mean that it's correct.

Aerili wrote: That's the thing, when you stretch (statically) before the workout, you don't actually get much range of motion. So there's not much to make permanent because the tissues don't elongate much. Also, as a former ballet dancer, I did not statically stretch before class very much if at all. I did do a lot of dynamic range of motion warm-up. As did my classmates. We did partner static stretches at the end of class.

Interesting...I guess I'd have thought static stretching after warmup but before the actual routine would be best (or even keep stretching as the workout goes), if nothing else, I get a better feel of how I should move w/ good flexibility. I agree it's hard to get much ROM w/cold muscles, but I'm also very hesitant to try something w/ large ROM dynamically w/o some static stretching first (not saying one is better than the other, but it feels hard to find that injury limit dynamically). I've tried static stretches after workout (also stretched before) & while I had the best ROM then, I was never sure it had any permanent effect.

Aerili- that's what I'm talking about 'too literal'. I don't mean 100% isolation. Will you also stretch muscle? Yes. You are correct. You admit you can change the emphasis though. All im saying, you put the emphasis on the length of the unit that is finger tendon. Again, I did not make these stretches up. Pretty well established.

Also, apart from you having Internet Asperger's you're wrong. Tendons do stretch. They are almost 90% collagen. You can't store energy like they do WITHOUT elasticity. If they didnt stretch they would just be bone. Static structures dont store energy. Tendons in fact have viscoelastic properties, and that is SUPER well established (like an insane amount of research.).....or am I taking you too literal? I know that can be really annoying, you know, when people do that.

And you do get increased ROM from static stretching, regardless of when you do it. Data from numerous studies shows it lasts from 60-90 minutes. But you are correct in that it creates joint instability so you probably need to watch which joints you are stretching.

Ryan- I actually like stretching. (regardless of the title, that was more of a joke) I think after a workout it just feels good. I used to stretch a lot before climbs and always felt weak for awhile initially. I just chalked it up to needing to warm-up. I saw that study and thought it was intriguing so I posted it for discussion. But to be fair, there is a ton of research on the effects of stretching and how it isn't quite as universally beneficial as everyone thought. One meta-analysis looked at over 190 seperate papers all finding negative effects of stretching in different capacities. And the OP articles cited papers that were published within the last month so I apologize if you feel this is a tired subject. I'm kinda tired of it myself.

reboot wrote: Interesting...I guess I'd have thought static stretching after warmup but before the actual routine would be best (or even keep stretching as the workout goes), if nothing else, I get a better feel of how I should move w/ good flexibility. I agree it's hard to get much ROM w/cold muscles, but I'm also very hesitant to try something w/ large ROM dynamically w/o some static stretching first (not saying one is better than the other, but it feels hard to find that injury limit dynamically). I've tried static stretches after workout (also stretched before) & while I had the best ROM then, I was never sure it had any permanent effect.

I think if you wanted to statically stretch before workout then doing it after warm-up would be exactly the way to go. And for a martial artist, you are correct in that this may be beneficial in certain joints (whereas it might not be beneficial for other types of athletes).

I actually have some info about the effects of temperature on stretching connective tissue specifically (which is the major restriction to flexibility) and can either post it here if you are interested or even mail it to you. It's fairly scientific but really interesting.

Greg Kimble wrote:Also, apart from you having Internet Asperger's you're wrong. Tendons do stretch. They are almost 90% collagen. You can't store energy like they do WITHOUT elasticity. If they didnt stretch they would just be bone. Static structures dont store energy. Tendons in fact have viscoelastic properties

I never said tendons don't stretch at all. I never said tendons are static. And I have already stated that both muscles and tendons have viscoelastic properties. Mmkay?

Collagen stretches very little. That is why tendons stretch very little. Contrary to your belief, the stretch shortening cycle which produces and utilizes the stored energy in tendons does not rely on the tendon being really "stretchy". A tendon may be either stiff or compliant and still have the ability to produce high or low amounts of elastic recoil. (Note: do not confuse the term "elastic recoil" to mean the tendon is highly elastic.) Stiffness and compliance refer to a tendon's ability to elongate under a given load (although, confusingly, this does not indicate their ability to have good or bad range of motion.)

"The two major physical properties of collagen fibers are their great tensile strength and relative inextensibility."
--M. Alter, "The Science of Flexibility" (emphasis his)

I don't know what your day job is, Greg, but armchair kinesiologist is not working out for you.

Now back to your regularly scheduled nonsense.

pass the popcorn please.

So you agree when someone takes you 'too literal' it's annoying. I was just proving a point and I apologize. The difference between me saying they are elastic and you saying they don't stretch that much is just what we are using as a reference. Relative to what? Collagen stretches a lot depending on what you are comparing it to. The elasticity of your skin is in large part due to the collagen. Simple misunderstanding that could be discussed reasonably.

"Furthermore, because the tendon stretches, the muscle is able to function with less or even no change in length, allowing the muscle to generate greater force"- Some Guy "Wikipedia"

Don't worry, I dont get my info from wikipedia. It is a joke. I apologize if anything I posted offended you at any point. I don't know why you resort to being hateful though. I'm sure you are a very nice and intelligent person.

In all seriousness, I do have a legitimate question. Do you have any data on connective tissues having more permanent deformations under higher temps? I've heard this several times but have never been able to find any research on it.

"Literal" is an adjective used to modify a noun. "Literally" is the adverb.

Christian wrote:"Literal" is an adjective used to modify a noun. "Literally" is the adverb.

It is good to put all the anal cunts together so they can argue grammar while considering if they should loosen up the hammies. Serious stuff!

I apologize for the offense to this great language. I'll rephrase in future postings.

Christian wrote:"Literal" is an adjective used to modify a noun. "Literally" is the adverb.

I was once picked on for the size of my weiner;
Someone at the gym compared its girth to that of a biner!

Now, I don't think he was being literal,
as my member has never had a problem giving
orgasms both vaginal and clitoral

haha of course my poem brings this to 3 pages.......

Aerili wrote: I actually have some info about the effects of temperature on stretching connective tissue specifically (which is the major restriction to flexibility) and can either post it here if you are interested or even mail it to you. It's fairly scientific but really interesting.

I'd be interested in seeing this. I'll PM my contact info if you have tired of posting stuff here.

As an aside, in the muscle tendon tension paper you referenced, do you think it matters that they had the MCP joint held in neutral position in the crimp, when in real life it is usually flexed at about 90 degrees?

Aerili wrote: I actually have some info about the effects of temperature on stretching connective tissue specifically (which is the major restriction to flexibility) and can either post it here if you are interested or even mail it to you. It's fairly scientific but really interesting.

I'm fascinated. Please post here if space allows.

Mark E Dixon wrote: As an aside, in the muscle tendon tension paper you referenced, do you think it matters that they had the MCP joint held in neutral position in the crimp, when in real life it is usually flexed at about 90 degrees?

There are 2 more shortcomings with that paper, I think (not that I necessarily think the paper is bad): 1) it tests only the half crimp w/ a single finger. Whereas, due to uneven finger length, in either half or full crimp, you are more likely have a better distribution of force over all your fingers (your thumb also helps a lot in a full crimp) than open hand crimp. 2) the force is applied straight downward, which really isn't the common reason to use half/full crimp: it's a stronger grip for inward pull as you shift your center-of-gravity upward (i.e., while making a move). On the other hand, the friction surface area can be very different between open hand & half/full crimp (w/ open hand, you can often take advantage of the skin surface area on the rest of the finger/hand/wrist to reduce the contraction force).

Not offended, Greg, but how is saying I have Internet autism not hateful? I mean, really. One set of rules for you and another for me?

Actually I can't even believe all these people are still reading this shit. ;-)

Greg Kimble wrote:The difference between me saying they are elastic and you saying they don't stretch that much is just what we are using as a reference. Relative to what? Collagen stretches a lot depending on what you are comparing it to. The elasticity of your skin is in large part due to the collagen. Simple misunderstanding that could be discussed reasonably.

Yes, so what are you comparing it to?

Some facts to help clear up "how much" collagen stretches: collagen fibers have a crimp formation when they lie together in connective tissue. When it uncrimps under load, the tissue elongates 1-2%. This is what it is supposed to do since this allows slight elongation of the structure without damage (and contributes to viscoelastic property). Higher loads can elongate it further but this is when the tissue begins to be damaged. Now I don't know what you consider "not stretching much," but I don't think 2% is very much. A collagen fiber can withstand a weight 10,000 times greater than its own and WILL NOT STRETCH. (From my Michael Alter book, citing a study by Verzar). I believe this is greater than steel. He goes on to say that at about a 5-6% strain in the tendon, fiber ruptures were observed to occur.

One of my anatomy texts states: "...collagen fibers are slightly wavy. This allows the tissue to stretch a little, but once the fibers are straightened out, there is no further 'give' to this tissue."

Your skin primarily gets its flexibility from the protein elastin, not collagen (as do most connective tissues in the body). This is info you can glean from any basic introductory anatomy text (three of which I have at home and refer to as needed). Elastin can stretch up to almost 150% of its length without damage. Some of the longitudinal ligaments in your spine are composed almost entirely of elastin. If they weren't, you wouldn't be able to nod, bend forward, or hardly move your spine at all. You would be a walking board. In fact, ligaments have more elastin than tendons and are therefore actually stretchier.

Muscle fibers have a much higher degree of elastin in them than tendons. Hence why they stretch so much further without damage.

The reality is that collagen is a structural support to your body and is designed to resist forces, aka not really stretch. If this wasn't the case, you would be like a melting Picasso figure since collagen is the most abundant protein in the body and is the glue which holds everything together.

The long and short of it is that if tendons actually did stretch "a lot" then you wouldn't be climbing. You wouldn't even be moving. There would be no tough anchor through which to transmit pulling forces because the forces would simply dissipate through the tissue as it lengthened. Imagine trying to hold a dog at your side on a leash with a rubber band instead of nylon. Not too effective.

The temperature stuff I will have to get to later. I have meetings and other work all afternoon.

Come on now, I already said I was just proving a point and apologized for it. Again, I apologize for being a dick. Why would you waste your time on that then not answer the real questions? Again, I am sorry for purposefully posting things to get under your skin. It distracted from the discussion and was stupid. I normally dont engage in that kind of stuff but i did. I won't do it again.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to harp on you, actually. Just thought the details were interesting for any wider audience (if there still is one, haaa) since I think the perception that tendons are stretchy is common (and the fact that ligaments are actually stretchier is not necessarily common knowledge). The info is dense, I know, but the right readers will (like me) enjoy reading that shit. (whatever that says about us :))

I'll post the other info later--I have things going on all day today (and most of tomorrow). Sorry for the delay.