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Ethical question...

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

I'm sure the relatives of the dead up on Everest would be receptive to someone bringing down those bodies. No one has stepped forward to do it yet. But I don't see any ethical issue with it at all if you want to take the risks.

Years ago in a Mexican cave a guy fell to his death and there was an uproar from the people that controlled the cave against using the anchors to do a body haul. They contended that it was best to just bury him in situ. Kind of a harsh pronouncement from people with a vested interest in the matter. In a year, a team of Polish cavers offered to do a body recovery and they went ahead and did it without the blessing of the naysayers and everything went fine.

frankstoneline · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 30
superkick wrote:listen. people who die there are mountaineers. I gauruntee theyd rather have their body frozen in time on everest than have people risk life and limb to bring it back and stick it in a plot of soil in whatever country they are from. at least I would. its a much better grave.
but should they be allowed to leave their personal refuse on the mountain? You can't bury granny in a city park no matter how much she likes it there, should you be allowed to "bury" yourself on Everest?
robrobrobrob · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 10

Yeah, it's all about cultural context. Retrieve WHO's body? the answer is different for a 'Merican and a Nepali. (And so on and so on) The dilemma isn't a specific ethical question, but rather whether the cultural value of the remains is worth the potential risk to retrieve them.

The caving stories are interesting, in Utah, they "closed the cave", but then went back later with better tools and recovered the body. In NY, we just kept working until the recovery happened. At least the NY one was as much about having immediately available resources more than any cultural or loved ones desire. Secretly I think a bunch of the people were at the rescue because it was better than being at work!

scott e. tarrant · · Fort Collins · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 250

if a new island was discovered and it's inhabitants grew an inescapable urge to "conquer" longs peak (very remote, very isolated, very far from their back yard, very, very much out of their cultural framework) and they littered their empty O2 bottles and their dead, would that qualify as an ethical issue for colorado residents? that is the only real ethical question i can contrive of the question. i mean, i can see the diamond from my back yard but i certainly can't see climbers (living or dead) but i would still be against the littering of it (with anything...). it's more romantic for us to be left as climbersicles but i imagine that for the folks who have the great fortune of seeing that mtn from their back yard, we are trash and litter. the fact that these newly discovered and very wealthy islanders (let's call them merikans) did not do the necessary training to climb the diamond without oxygen (the islands high point is just over 7,000'), they argue that it is actually smarter to climb it with supplemental O2...their research indicates that brain cells die in low O2 environments, although nearly all of the residents who climb it regularly do so without supplemental O2 and hardly ever die...heck a few of the locals even make a living getting the merikans up it! it drives a big part of the CO economy and we all know that is what's important...i mean the merikans have tons of ipads and smart phones and skinny jeans and web pages where they discuss the merits of risking their lives to climb mountains and the risk of getting their dead back home...we would have a better quality of life if we had that stuff too...gotta grow the economy.

of course i'm just being silly but for my .02, that is the only ethical or moral issue i see. the other comments re: risk/reward/SAR things are spot on.
good luck with your paper. i think it's cool that you have the opportunity to investigate these questions! if anything is to change, it will be a function of these questions.

scott

J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
Ben Brotelho wrote: the balance between risking the life of the people removing the bodies versus the families' 'rights' to their family members' remains is an ethical issue if you ask me.
Ha, but those families do have the right to pony up the resources, fly to Asia, and reclaim their loved ones bodies if they so choose.

The ethical issue might be, why don't more families take care of their loved one's meat sacks?
Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155

If you decide to climb Everest you're implicitly agreeing to the fact that you may never come back, dead or alive. The families have the right to retrieve the body, but that doesn't mean that somebody else should be doing it or have to foot the bill.

I understand people's desire for closure, but a living rescuer is worth infinitely more than a dead climber. If I ever die doing something dangerous, I hope nobody puts themselves in danger in an attempt to haul my corpse out of there.

Personally, I'd also much rather be buried under the ice of the mountain that took my life than to be buried in a local cemetery with a lame headstone beside random people I don't know. The mountain burial is cheaper, too...

rging · · Salt Lake City, Ut · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 210

I think the better question would be...is it ethical to toss the bodies over the edge into Tibet? Seriously, who would want to be be left on a busy climbing route where at best you are used as an anchor.

frankstoneline · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 30
J Q wrote: Ha, but those families do have the right to pony up the resources, fly to Asia, and reclaim their loved ones bodies if they so choose. The ethical issue might be, why don't more families take care of their loved one's meat sacks?
I would argue someone should be held responsible.

It's sad, but more and more I think to myself "Everest really ought to have a damage deposit" precisely for the hauling out of meat sacks and whatever else you leave (intentionally or unintentionally).
Brian Croce · · san diego, CA · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 60
Ian Stewart wrote:If you decide to climb Everest you're implicitly agreeing to the fact that you may never come back, dead or alive. The families have the right to retrieve the body, but that doesn't mean that somebody else should be doing it or have to foot the bill. I understand people's desire for closure, but a living rescuer is worth infinitely more than a dead climber. If I ever die doing something dangerous, I hope nobody puts themselves in danger in an attempt to haul my corpse out of there. Personally, I'd also much rather be buried under the ice of the mountain that took my life than to be buried in a local cemetery with a lame headstone beside random people I don't know. The mountain burial is cheaper, too...
really that mountain burial has cost some people upwards of 70,000$
Brian Croce · · san diego, CA · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 60

plus id be way more cocnerned about the trash the living deposit everywhere, than the bodies the dead leave.

frankstoneline · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 30
Tonto wrote: Like the parties that put a ladder on the last pitch of the climb and encouraged the people to die trying? Wow, the noob has a really valid point. The guides should pay for their attempt to make more money off of our sacred activity, how dare they! After we persecute the stupid ass guides, hows about we fix the problems for those little brown people who don't understand what good ethics are. Man, oh how I hate that White Man's Burden. BTW, how many people have actually been to Everest Base Camp here besides me? Does anyone who actually summited have an opinion?
...and down the road of "noob" slandering and "if you haven't done it you don't have the right to comment on it" we go.
sqwirll · · Las Vegas · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 1,360
rging wrote: Seriously, who would want to be be left on a busy climbing route where at best you are used as an anchor.
Brings a new meaning to deadman.
Jonathan S · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 2,113

Frequently when I read threads on here it strikes me how many people never let a little thing like having only a little bit of knowledge stop them from braying their opinions.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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