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Geeking out on going light with trad.
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Interesting topic, I have a Nano 23, but also have some Petzl Ange S, which though not as light as the Nano is my preferred biner for trad. No one has mentioned Wild County Helium cams which I thought were lighter and featured a greater expansion range, and someone mentioned that the older rigid stem Friends with a wire gate was a light combination. |
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Metolius TCU's through size 4; then Wild Country Heliums above that, sizes 2-4. |
JLP wrote: True, but it's more than that. If you weigh more than, say, 150 lbs with the rack in the OP and climb at a level where you take a lot of falls, those biners are likely to break quite often. The loads that gear will see outside are not like the loads they see in the lab where they rate them. If you weigh, say, over 180 or so, I'd say such ultralight gear is not a good idea for you.Why do you say this? The Camp Nano has a 20Kn rating with the gate closed. A 180 Pound climber, on a 60 meter rope, taking a fall 10 feet out from pro generates less than 10Kn on a STATIC rope... probably more like... what 5Kn or so on a dynamic rope. Make the climber 220, and 80 feet out from pro and you start seeing around 16kn with a static. That's not to say their not fiddly.... or that you shouldn't replace the slings often... |
JLP wrote: True, but it's more than that. If you weigh more than, say, 150 lbs with the rack in the OP and climb at a level where you take a lot of falls, those biners are likely to break quite often. The loads that gear will see outside are not like the loads they see in the lab where they rate them. If you weigh, say, over 180 or so, I'd say such ultralight gear is not a good idea for you.I was commenting on the skinny slings rather than the biners. I had a few of my Mammut 8mm skinny dyneema slings tested each year for four years and they went from 22kn to 8-10kn dropping about 3kn per year. I discussed this with Mammut and they were emphatic they make those slings for going ultra-lite alpine, not for general trad use. They also emphasized the slings were a consumable item and not meant to be used year after year the way thicker nylon slings are. As for small biners, I'd be curious as to your assertion they may break easier than 'regular' ones. The KN ratings for my Ange, Spirit, and Helium biners aren't that far off so I'm not sure I'm understanding the risk you are positing. |
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nylon slings are a better buy but were not talking best gear for the dollar... we talking the lowest weight and least durable . i like heilums a lot I have a double set. the Camp Photons are a nice racking biner, not the lightest in general, but at 29grams for full size I would recommend them over the nano or edelrid just because there's nothing more agravating than pumping out getting the clip because that stupid midget biner slid out of your hand twenty times |
JLP wrote:Calculate this for us: What kind of twisting load will it take? What happens when you clip a fixed mangle that doesn't load the biner like that 12mm dowel in the lab? Now what happens when you shock load the biner with all of these loads and more all at relatively the same instant? How about right after the gate either bounced or was pried open by a crystal of rock? I only have rough guesses based on experience, but in general the more you weigh, the more you fall, the more metal you want in your biners.Well.. when the biner is more than twice the estimated ratings in the lab.. it really doesn't worry me that much. Most real life falls actually result in less loading, because people slide on the rock, the other slings absorb energy, the belay slips, and.. yes.. people are squishier than static lead weights and some energy is lost there. As for twisting.. crossloading your biner's not a good thing, maybe only use those on pretty clean routes. My biggest issue with them is that they have less material, which means any wear by nicks, scratches, rope grooves... that will be amplified over time. So.. people who weigh more need bigger biners.... that makes me smile. |
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Those of us who weigh over 200lbs like at least a decent open gate strength like 9kN, those 6kN things do nothing for my peace of mind! |
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I thought I would add my two cents... |
JLP wrote:Noobs should search the forums for broken biner stories (and accidents) before posting their opinions to this thread.So how does calling someone names help in your argument? Is it going to make him want to go and look up what you are suggesting he look up? Does it somehow make your argument anymore valid? Do you know for certain that the person the noob comment was directed at really is a noob? Is it possible that he has many years of experience? Even if he is a noob, is it possible that he still has a valid point to make? |
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Oz biners are not full size. |
JLP wrote:Noobs should search the forums for broken biner stories (and accidents) before posting their opinions to this thread.The last one I remember reading was a Petzl Spirit |
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Reading JLP's previous replies will convince you he's entitled to his own opinion and you're entitled to his opinion as well. |
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Lightest lockers: bogley.com/forum/showthread… |
JLP wrote:If you weigh more than, say, 150 lbs with the rack in the OP and climb at a level where you take a lot of falls, those biners are likely to break quite often. The loads that gear will see outside are not like the loads they see in the lab where they rate them. If you weigh, say, over 180 or so, I'd say such ultralight gear is not a good idea for you.I'd like to know what your definition of "quite often" is. I think I've only seen a handful of carabiner failure stories, and as far as I remember they were all sport climbing situations where they got hung up weird on the hanger or something. I don't remember any of those failures being ultralight biners in trad situations. If you break a biner while trad climbing, the most likely reason is that you screwed up on your gear placement. Of all the gear used when trad climbing, I'm least concerned about my biners. If you think biners fail "quite often", I wonder what term you'd use to quantitatively describe how often other pro fails to hold (which happens far more often than biners breaking). |
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Biners: Edelrid Nineteen-G (www.mec.ca will have them in stock in the spring)
Cams: Wild Country Zeros for the smallest sizes, then Metolius TCUs or Black Diamond X4s (once they come out in late spring), then Metolius Mastercams, then DMM Dragons for the bigger sizes, the Trango Big Bros for sizes beyond Nuts: Those plastic nuts that Gear4Rocks make Nut Tool: Metolius Feather Belay Device: The Mammut Fuse is 41 grams Locking Biner: The Grivel Plume is 37 grams. Helmet: The Petzl Sirocco will be the lightest rock climbing helmet on the market once it comes out in the spring. |
JLP wrote:http://lmgtfy.com/?q=broken+biner These noob threads are the plague."About 93,500 results (0.20 seconds) Did you mean: broken boner " LOLz. |
JLP wrote:http://lmgtfy.com/?q=broken+biner These noob threads are the plague.I still prefer noobs to overwhelmingly false statements. If you want to provide a link, how about you give us one that backs up your claim that light biners break "quite often". Or perhaps one that disputes my assumption that most failures are due to incorrect use or freak accidents. Here's a link where Kolin Powick, director of Global Quality for Black Diamond since 2002, says "I’ve seen and/or heard of only a handful of carabiners that have broken in the field in my time as Director of Global Quality at Black Diamond, and most have broken in the same way: nose hooked." blackdiamondequipment.com/e… So the quality control director for the last 10+ years at BD says he only knows of a "handful" of failed biners, most of which failed due to incorrect use, or you have JLP, troll of MP since 2007, saying that they break "quite often" and that a 30lb climber weight difference could be to blame. Hmm....who should I believe!?!? |
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Lightest Belay with Guide-Mode: Seems to be the Reverso-4 at 59 Grams. |
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It would be useful to compare the weight of your dream rack to a standard rack. |
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Here's a few ideas that I don't think have been mentioned yet. Some of these things are not always a good idea, but may help sometimes. A lighter pack, titan cord if you carry cord, DMM aloy offsets instead of a full rack of nuts sometimes, depending on the climb you might be able to rack 2 cams to a biner, small head lamp, lithium batteries, less water. Don't carry 2 of something between you and your partner if you can safely get by with one. |
