Bolts for Limestone How Long?

Jim Titt wrote:That no manufacturer makes titanium bolts

That is not true. I know you have heard me say I have installed countless titanium bolts in Hawaii, I have probably mentioned it 20 times on this forum. Plus, I know Josh showed you his titanium bolts at the conference. Titanium bolts certainly are manufactured, just not under a known climbing company name. United Titanium of Ohio makes countless titanium bolts, some of which we have used at our crags. They make great titanium u-bolts that hold nearly 40kN. As far as the tests you mentioned, I would like to see the actual test. The titanium u-bolts we have installed have proven to be very safe and reliable. We have installed nearly 500 of them, all of which have taken lead falls, and we have not experienced any failures, bending or unusual results. Many people have referred to some mysterious testing of titanium bolts that yielded some horrendous result, such as you claimed, but no one has ever provided a copy of the test. Furthermore, I am not sure that testing of the Tortuga bolt, no matter how bad, can appropriate create a valid blanket statement that all titanium bolts are bad. There are multiple titanium bolt designs out there and there are countless titanium alloys and manufacturing processes. So to say that all titanium bolts are unsafe as a result of the testing of only one product is silly.

Ryan Williams wrote:Don't ignore what people are saying about Titanium bolts. Using even the best stainless expansion bolts is useless. I havent placed nearly as many bolts as Sam, but I've done enough bolting in that part of the world to know that you need glue and you need Titanium. Cantabaco is similar to some of the limestone in Thailand and ultimately it was formed in the exact same way. There is vegetation on top and it gets a lot of rain in monsoon season. There are varying degrees of the problem, but it absolutely exists at all limestone areas near the sea. Don't be cheap. Do it right so people like me dont have to do spend our own money fixing your problem.

Ryan, I WISH there were more people like you! People who understand and have reached the right conclusions. (See my post in "Bolts Bolts Bolts".)

This issue goes beyond climber safety and the money and labor it takes to rebolt. It is ultimately a sustainability and access issue, and if we expect to be able to climb in these areas in the future, we need to STOP denying what the real situation is, and only use titanium in corrosive areas.

20 kN wrote: I happen to be one of the primary route developers in Hawaii, and I have been here for the last five years. We started using titanium seven years ago. Nearly every questionable bolt has been replaced already. So I think followed would be a more appropriate word. :)

Excellent! I have wondered what the current situation was in Hawaii. It's my understanding that Hawaii is mostly basalt/igneous rock. We are VERY interested in obtaining samples of cracked stainless bolts that were not placed in limestone. Can you send me some? Please!

Jim Titt wrote: Currently titanium bolts are extremely unattractive as a commercial proposition and not only due to the material costs. Their reputation at least in Europe was tainted by the shockingly low failure loads when the previously commercially available bolts where independantly tested. .... The thought of looking at say Cuba as a potential market is laughable for any major manufacturer, they probably have less than a days production for us in total bolts on the island and no money either.

Jim, my goal since 2000, when we made the first Ti bolt, has been for a climbing manufacturer to provide a Ti bolt as a regular product. Back then, everyone was denying that stainless would not work, and today I STILL see that ignorance in the majority of climbers.

The pull-tests in question, where the Tortugas failed close to 9kN, were always questionable. I don't know who did them, how accurate their results were, or where to get a copy of the test summary. The results were not repeatable. Like 20kN, I have 13 years of practical testing in Cayman Brac on over 700 titanium bolts and am quite pleased with them.

I also know that the UT bolts far surpass all UIAA standards for strength, and MY STANDARD for corrosion resistance. I TRIED to get the UIAA to adopt a corrosion standard back in 2000-2003, but the bolt manufacturers resisted it, siting all the things you just did. THEY WERE WRONG, AND ARE STILL WRONG.

I have two professional metallurgists on my team here in Colorado, one of which works with Ti everyday in the aerospace industry. You seem to work for a bolt supplier. What if I told you that we know how to manufacture a Ti bolt, with an expected strength of 40kN and a manufacturing cost (after tooling costs) of about $4? With a Petzl Collinox going for about $18 and only lasting a few years, it's a no-brainer.

And as far as the market for these bolts, it's just now entering it's growth phase. How many stainless steel bolts do you think have been placed in the Mediterranean? A hundred thousand? Five hundred thousand? And in Asia? The Caribbean? South America? These ALL NEED TO BE REPLACED.

As I said before, this is ultimately a sustainability and access issue. Stainless breaks and will continue to break. Climbers will be hurt and/or killed. Governments will put an end to sport climbing in these areas, and THEN who are you going to sell bolts to?

John Byrnes wrote: Excellent! I have wondered what the current situation was in Hawaii. It's my understanding that Hawaii is mostly basalt/igneous rock. We are VERY interested in obtaining samples of cracked stainless bolts that were not placed in limestone. Can you send me some? Please!

Yes, it is almost all basalt. I only have a few SCC and pitting corrosion induced hangers and bolts, maybe seven. Honestly, it is not a huge problem here. Only about 1% of the 304 stainless steel hangers we have placed have exhibited cracking and 100% of those hangers were powder coated Metolius Enviro hangers. We have placed about 200 Fixe 304 4mm stock SS hangers and none of them have failed, not even after ten years. As far as the bolts go, all of the few wedge bolts we placed (20 or so) have become dangerous. There is no question that wedge bolts, even if made of 316, suck ass in marine environments. About 1% of the other bolts we have placed (304 3/8" Power-Bolts) have failed.

But of course the only failure value that is acceptable is 0%, so we made the blanket decision to replace everything with titanium except the anchor chain which does not come in titanium, we use 3/8" 316 chain for that. To start with, I have plenty of photos of the broken hangers and bolts I can send you.

John Byrnes wrote: Jim, my goal since 2000, when we made the first Ti bolt, has been for a climbing manufacturer to provide a Ti bolt as a regular product. Back then, everyone was denying that stainless would not work, and today I STILL see that ignorance in the majority of climbers. The pull-tests in question, where the Tortugas failed close to 9kN, were always questionable. I don't know who did them, how accurate their results were, or where to get a copy of the test summary. The results were not repeatable. Like 20kN, I have 13 years of practical testing in Cayman Brac on over 700 titanium bolts and am quite pleased with them. I also know that the UT bolts far surpass all UIAA standards for strength, and MY STANDARD for corrosion resistance. I TRIED to get the UIAA to adopt a corrosion standard back in 2000-2003, but the bolt manufacturers resisted it, siting all the things you just did. THEY WERE WRONG, AND ARE STILL WRONG. I have two professional metallurgists on my team here in Colorado, one of which works with Ti everyday in the aerospace industry. You seem to work for a bolt supplier. What if I told you that we know how to manufacture a Ti bolt, with an expected strength of 40kN and a manufacturing cost (after tooling costs) of about $4? With a Petzl Collinox going for about $18 and only lasting a few years, it's a no-brainer. And as far as the market for these bolts, it's just now entering it's growth phase. How many stainless steel bolts do you think have been placed in the Mediterranean? A hundred thousand? Five hundred thousand? And in Asia? The Caribbean? South America? These ALL NEED TO BE REPLACED. As I said before, this is ultimately a sustainability and access issue. Stainless breaks and will continue to break. Climbers will be hurt and/or killed. Governments will put an end to sport climbing in these areas, and THEN who are you going to sell bolts to?

The tests on the Tortuga bolts were performed by TüV SüD in Munich, the only (at that time) certified bolt testing laboratory in the worlds and the leading authority on climbing equipment testing. The results have never been questionable in any way whatsoever and if you think they are I´m quite happy to put you in touch with the leader of that department. He also sits on the UIAA Safecom and CENORM as the testing labs representative and knows more than you or I will ever know about breaking this tuff.
The results are included in an article on bolts from the German Alpine Club (DAV) and were widely published and are available for anyone to read at any time in their archives.

Like it or not the tests were read by a great number of people and make it difficult for any manufacturer to get really interested in re-establishing titaniums reputation. If you guys (the titanium promoters) would ever publish credible independently verified results to a reasonable QC standards things might be easier for us (I am a manufacturer).

If you can, as you state, produce a titanium single stem (not U) bolt capable of passing the CE standard (we have no interest in the UIAA safety label) and a breaking strain of 40kN for $4 then I wish to order 1,000 today. Cash payment FOB USA. If you cannot supply at the claimed price then please inform us.

We have many hundreds of thousands of bolts in coastal areas in Europe and 3 recorded failures, the chance of the European sport climbing community being influenced by the advocates of titanium or the future UIAA corrosion recomendations are precisely nil, I know since I´m involved in their decision making.

A previous delegate to the UIAA from the USA tried to force galvanised steel bolts onto the climbing community as a solution for coastal corrosion but we saw sense and rejected this as a concept, currently there is a new effort to provide a new set of recommendations but these look doomed to failure or at least reduced to meaninglessness for reasons you probably will have trouble understanding.

As usual market forces will have the final say, if titanium bolts are too expensive then the areas with major or uncontrollable corrosion problems will be abandoned as sport climbing venues. Scaremongering that governments will ban sport climbing does nothing to support your argument, the governments in the EU do not have the legal power to do so even if they wanted to which is very unlikely. The opposite is in fact the case in taht EU and state funds are being used to bolt coastal areas in the Mediterranean.

Clearly corrosion in a few areas is a problem and it would be desirable to find a solution, for the vast majority of climbing areas the picture is different and some of the previous attempts to cover both issues have been unsuccessful mainly due to unrealistic claims from some parties and a considerable amount of axe-grinding. All of which (and I have 20 years experience of the goings-on) are utterly irrelevant if the manufacturers don´t make a product at a profit.

I´m not on the internet for the next week to continue the debate as we are climbing in Arizona having come from Europe (at my expense) to contribute to the ASCA Conference and talk about corrosion and standards.

Jim Titt wrote: The tests on the Tortuga bolts were performed by TüV SüD in Munich, the only (at that time) certified bolt testing laboratory in the worlds and the leading authority on climbing equipment testing. The results have never been questionable in any way whatsoever and if you think they are I´m quite happy to put you in touch with the leader of that department.

We never questioned the reliability of the testing organization. What we questioned was why did they fail at 9kN when the ones we tested here at BD failed at over 25kN?

At the time, there were only two people buying them, and all the bolts were made-to-order. So where did they get them, and were they made by the same people/process?

Jim Titt wrote: He also sits on the UIAA Safecom and CENORM as the testing labs representative and knows more than you or I will ever know about breaking this tuff.

Yes, please send his contact info.

Jim Titt wrote: Like it or not the tests were read by a great number of people and make it difficult for any manufacturer to get really interested in re-establishing titaniums reputation.

This is pure nonsense. This is like saying that the Wright Brothers' first aircraft wasn't practical, and therefore, no aircraft are practical.

Even though dozens of morons on the internet keep saying "Titanium is brittle", it is used extensively in the aerospace industry, for example, where its strength and toughness are a foregone conclusion. You flew over here, right? The wings didn't crack off over the Atlantic did they?

Jim Titt wrote: If you guys (the titanium promoters) would ever publish credible independently verified results to a reasonable QC standards things might be easier for us (I am a manufacturer).

We don't publish for liability reasons. We "titanium promoters" aren't being paid. We designed, produced, tested and installed Ti bolts because your product, stainless steel, was worthless in the places we loved to climb. We did it for the love of the sport, not to make things easier for you. We continue to do it because existing bolt manufacturers don't have a solution. Replacing bolts every few years is NOT a solution, it's ridiculous.

Jim Titt wrote:If you can, as you state, produce a titanium single stem (not U) bolt capable of passing the CE standard (we have no interest in the UIAA safety label) and a breaking strain of 40kN for $4 then I wish to order 1,000 today.

I said we know how to do it. Not that we are doing it. I'm just pointing out that Ti bolts could be produced that are profitable and price-equivelent with stainless. But you're so closed-minded, forget it.

Jim Titt wrote:We have many hundreds of thousands of bolts in coastal areas in Europe and 3 recorded failures, the chance of the European sport climbing community being influenced by the advocates of titanium or the future UIAA corrosion recomendations are precisely nil, I know since I´m involved in their decision making.

It's too bad you're involved, because you obviously have a vested interest in stainless and a prejudiced attitude about Ti, which is the ONLY extant solution to the corrosion problem. Clearly, that pisses you off.

Only three failures? How many of those bolts have you replaced? How many will you replace? How many will you need to replace over and over again?

Jim Titt wrote: there is a new effort to provide a new set of recommendations but these look doomed to failure or at least reduced to meaninglessness for reasons you probably will have trouble understanding. As usual market forces will have the final say, if titanium bolts are too expensive then the areas with major or uncontrollable corrosion problems will be abandoned as sport climbing venues.

I have to call bullshit on that. Ti bolts are NOT too expensive, as proven by the fact that thousands of them are being installed every year, all around the world. Furthermore, these efforts are philanthropic; none of the people doing it are being paid a penny, we're not funded by a local government, and none of us are wealthy.

Market forces have already had the final say. We have evaluated the cost of putting in a Ti bolt for $10 that should last several centuries versus having to replace a $5 stainless bolt every three years. It's quite clear which is more cost effective, even if you neglect to include the labor in the price, as you always do.

It's also quite clear that producing a removable/replaceable stainless bolt creates a nice steady revenue stream for manufacturers like you.

And as far as me having trouble understanding, give me a fucking break. The only problem is the politics. Use the ASTM boiling MgCL2 test and be done.

Jim Titt wrote: Scaremongering that governments will ban sport climbing does nothing to support your argument, the governments in the EU do not have the legal power to do so even if they wanted to which is very unlikely. The opposite is in fact the case in taht EU and state funds are being used to bolt coastal areas in the Mediterranean. Clearly corrosion in a few areas is a problem and it would be desirable to find a solution,

Deny, deny, deny. There's a hell of a lot of climbing that's NOT in the EU, Jim. There exists a solution, Jim. You just don't want to acknowledge it.

How long do you think those EU governments will continue to fund bolt replacement? Consider Kalymnos. Saying that Greece isn't one of the wealthiest countries in the EU is a huge understatement. How long do you think they can afford to pay for bolt replacement?

20 kN wrote: Yes, it is almost all basalt. I only have a few SCC and pitting corrosion induced hangers and bolts, maybe seven. Honestly, it is not a huge problem here. Only about 1% of the 304 stainless steel hangers we have placed have exhibited cracking and 100% of those hangers were powder coated Metolius Enviro hangers. We have placed about 200 Fixe 304 4mm stock SS hangers and none of them have failed, not even after ten years. As far as the bolts go, all of the few wedge bolts we placed (20 or so) have become dangerous. There is no question that wedge bolts, even if made of 316, suck ass in marine environments. About 1% of the other bolts we have placed (304 3/8" Power-Bolts) have failed. But of course the only failure value that is acceptable is 0%, so we made the blanket decision to replace everything with titanium except the anchor chain which does not come in titanium, we use 3/8" 316 chain for that. To start with, I have plenty of photos of the broken hangers and bolts I can send you.

That sounds about right. If you could send us a few samples with "closed" cracks, that would be great. A closed crack is one where the material hasn't broken into two pieces, and all thel elements are still in the crack and there's no contamination. Oh, send a small piece (1" stone) of your basalt too!

In our experience (in limestone), the 304 will crack much faster than 316. We had a lot of Fixe clad bolts. Can you cut one in half and see if it's actually a clad bolt or solid stainless. The shiny cladding is distinctly different than a mild steel core.

Can you please describe your anchors in a bit more detail? Ti bolts with steel chain?

For what it's worth, on Cayman Brac we just thread the two anchor bolts with the climbing rope. There's plenty of sand too, but the abrasion resistance of Ti is orders of magnitude better than steel, and after 13 years they show NO wear. People even top-rope directly through the anchors.

"John Byrnes" wrote:I said we know how to do it. Not that we are doing it. I'm just pointing out that Ti bolts could be produced that are profitable and price-equivelent with stainless.

This isn't sarcasm, but rather a genuine question:

If you know how to produce a single-stem Ti bolt that fulfills the CE requirements for $4 a unit, why don't you produce them? Or why don't you contract with an existing Ti fabricator to produce them for you?

Perin Blanchard wrote: This isn't sarcasm, but rather a genuine question: If you know how to produce a single-stem Ti bolt that fulfills the CE requirements for $4 a unit, why don't you produce them? Or why don't you contract with an existing Ti fabricator to produce them for you?

My "team" isn't part of a business. We are just climbers who love the sport and happen to have the expertise to solve what we see as a serious problem. And we solved it.

None of the work we've done has been for profit but just the opposite. For example, I have personally spent something over $20,000 and near 1000 hours of labor to rebolt Cayman Brac with Ti, and the Thaitanium Project (www.thaitaniumproject.com) is much larger.

To produce Ti bolts for profit we would need to start a company/corporation. We all either already have full-time jobs or are retired, and it's not what we want to do. If I were 20 years younger, I might do it.

No, the production of Ti bolts is something an existing climbing company should pick up as an addition to their product line. There is profit to be made and a whole lot more.

Hi John,

Which glue are you using with the Ti bolts?

Thanks,

Chris

Chris Clarke wrote:Hi John, Which glue are you using with the Ti bolts? Thanks, Chris

On Cayman Brac and in Thailand we're using the Hilti RE-500. I'm impressed with it and recommend it. In DAV tests done about 10 years ago, the pull-out machine maxed-out at 40kN before the glue failed. UIAA spec is 15kN.

Maybe I can offer a different perspective here. I am no metalurgist and don't claim to know more than the obvious when it comes to testing methods, types of steel, etc. All I know is that I've broken stainless glue in Fixe bolts off a wall in Thailand with nothing more than a quickdraw, and I've pulled out a Petzl glue in bolt by hand. The Fixe bolt was less than 10 years old and broke right off when I clipped into it with a draw and bounced. The Petzl bolt was less than 12 years old and came out when I tried to clip it. The bolt looked new, but the collinox glue had failed. I have scarier stories concerning expansion bolts but that's for another thread.

As someone who had no previous experience bolting and had never thought that bolts like that could fail so easily, what I saw on my first trip to Thailand was alarming. How could it be, in a place where thousands of climbers pay thousands of dollars every year to visit, that the hardware was in such horrible condition? Was anyone making an effort to solve this problem?

Over the next three years I made it a personal goal to at least make my tiny island safe. The climbing shops there were supporting me, so I figured I owed it to them to keep the climbing on this island sustainable. Without safe bolts, many locals would not have the possibility to earn a living, much less climb.

I think many climbers at least understand that a lot of work goes into bolting. But what i think most climbers DON'T understand is that in places like Thailand, Cayman Brack, the Philipines, etc, the most difficlut part is not putting in the hardware, but obtaining it.

Things have changed a bit since I left Thailand, but when I was there we were literally paying cash to a few generous Russian climbers who were smuggling Tortuga bolts into the country. Other groups of people were getting Ti staple bolts custom made in the US but the order process for all of us was the same. We had to guarantee that the order would be at least 500 bolts or so, or the hardware would not get made. We're talking about hundreds if not thousands of dollars that must be raised just to place an order. You can imagine how hard that is in Thailand.

Now like I said, I don't claim to know a lot about the industry as far as costs and profits. But it sure as hell felt strange to know how many areas would rely on Ti bolts to stay open, and then also know that there were no companies actually selling them regularly. How is it possible that none of the bolt manufacturers had got wind of this market?

Then it dawned on me. Stainless bolts need to be replaced. Maybe after 10 years, maybe after 20, but inevitably, they will need to be replaced. This is the perfect business model. It's like razor blades. If Gillette ever found a way to create a razor that never needed replacing, they'd spend money to keep that design OFF the market. It would ruin their long term business.

So I am not accusing anyone of anything, but as someone who really struggled to source Ti bolts, it sure FEELS like the hardware manufacturers are more concerned about their long term business model than the fact that many many MANY areas would benifit from Titanium.

John understands. Like him and SO MANY others, I have sunk a lot of my own money into bolts and glue, not to mention the time it takes. People like us, we do it because we believe in something. We don't want to be paid for it or even get any recognition. And we understand that manufacturers need to run a business and make money. But a little support and cooperation from a major player in the manufacturing business would go a LONG way toward making these areas permanently safe. Once that problem is solved, individuals can focus their efforts on waste removal, trail maintenance, and all the other problems that also plague many of the areas we've spoken of in these threads.

Until then, thanks to people like Sam, Josh, John and so many others who have paved the way to a more sustainable future.

Ryan Williams wrote:Maybe I can offer a different perspective here. I am no metalurgist and don't claim to know more than the obvious when it comes to testing methods, types of steel, etc. All I know is that I've broken stainless glue in Fixe bolts off a wall in Thailand with nothing more than a quickdraw, and I've pulled out a Petzl glue in bolt by hand. The Fixe bolt was less than 10 years old and broke right off when I clipped into it with a draw and bounced. The Petzl bolt was less than 12 years old and came out when I tried to clip it. The bolt looked new, but the collinox glue had failed. I have scarier stories concerning expansion bolts but that's for another thread. As someone who had no previous experience bolting and had never thought that bolts like that could fail so easily, what I saw on my first trip to Thailand was alarming. How could it be, in a place where thousands of climbers pay thousands of dollars every year to visit, that the hardware was in such horrible condition? Was anyone making an effort to solve this problem? Over the next three years I made it a personal goal to at least make my tiny island safe. The climbing shops there were supporting me, so I figured I owed it to them to keep the climbing on this island sustainable. Without safe bolts, many locals would not have the possibility to earn a living, much less climb. I think many climbers at least understand that a lot of work goes into bolting. But what i think most climbers DON'T understand is that in places like Thailand, Cayman Brack, the Philipines, etc, the most difficlut part is not putting in the hardware, but obtaining it. Things have changed a bit since I left Thailand, but when I was there we were literally paying cash to a few generous Russian climbers who were smuggling Tortuga bolts into the country. Other groups of people were getting Ti staple bolts custom made in the US but the order process for all of us was the same. We had to guarantee that the order would be at least 500 bolts or so, or the hardware would not get made. We're talking about hundreds if not thousands of dollars that must be raised just to place an order. You can imagine how hard that is in Thailand. Now like I said, I don't claim to know a lot about the industry as far as costs and profits. But it sure as hell felt strange to know how many areas would rely on Ti bolts to stay open, and then also know that there were no companies actually selling them regularly. How is it possible that none of the bolt manufacturers had got wind of this market? Then it dawned on me. Stainless bolts need to be replaced. Maybe after 10 years, maybe after 20, but inevitably, they will need to be replaced. This is the perfect business model. It's like razor blades. If Gillette ever found a way to create a razor that never needed replacing, they'd spend money to keep that design OFF the market. It would ruin their long term business. So I am not accusing anyone of anything, but as someone who really struggled to source Ti bolts, it sure FEELS like the hardware manufacturers are more concerned about their long term business model than the fact that many many MANY areas would benifit from Titanium. Josh understands. Like him and SO MANY others, I have sunk a lot of my own money into bolts and glue, not to mention the time it takes. People like us, we do it because we believe in something. We don't want to be paid for it or even get any recognition. And we understand that manufacturers need to run a business and make money. But a little support and cooperation from a major player in the manufacturing business would go a LONG way toward making these areas permanently safe. Once that problem is solved, individuals can focus their efforts on waste removal, trail maintenance, and all the other problems that also plague many of the areas we've spoken of in these threads. Until then, thanks to people like Sam and Josh and so many others who have paved the way to a more sustainable future.

Well said and right on target.

BTW, I just had lunch with Josh.

John Byrnes wrote: Well said and right on target. BTW, I just had lunch with Josh.

Cool. I wasn't sure if you guys knew each other. He may not even remember me, but tell him Ryan from Phi Phi says hello.

Have you met Jonas and Garth? Seems like they've been enjoying the US latelly. Hope you guys have a great winter, wherever you decide to spend it!

PS, John, I just realized I've been calling you "Josh." I've just edited the last post to fix that.

I was talking about you in the last post, but "Josh" goes in the same category and of course there are climbers all over the world that put in time, money, hard work, etc. You guys put so much effort into this cause. There are a lot of us out there that do appreciate it and try to help when we can.

Ryan Williams wrote:PS, John, I just realized I've been calling you "Josh." I've just edited the last post to fix that. I was talking about you in the last post, but "Josh" goes in the same category and of course there are climbers all over the world that put in time, money, hard work, etc. You guys put so much effort into this cause. There are a lot of us out there that do appreciate it and try to help when we can.

Thanks. I'll tell Josh you said "hi".

I first met Jonas about two weeks ago. He and Josh just got back from a two-week climbing road trip that included all the desert areas and the Las Vegas conference. Interesting stories, not much appropriate action.

At last, I´m part of a conspiracy theory!

The gentleman in charge of testing at TÜV Süd is Dr. Volker Kron, his mail is volker.kron@tuev-sued.de
Since he is at the testing laboratory he is prevented from giving details of the tests without permision (they are confidential) so you should contact Chris Semmel who leads the DAV safety research;- chris.semmel@alpenverein.de
They both speak English.

John Byrnes wrote: On Cayman Brac and in Thailand we're using the Hilti RE-500. I'm impressed with it and recommend it. In DAV tests done about 10 years ago, the pull-out machine maxed-out at 40kN before the glue failed. UIAA spec is 15kN.

I'm using the Hilti glue here in Bolivia but it is really expensive so I was hoping for a more economical alternative.

Chris Clarke wrote: I'm using the Hilti glue here in Bolivia but it is really expensive so I was hoping for a more economical alternative.

Yes, it's expensive just like all of Hilti's products. But anything that says "Hilti" on it is also, IMHO, the best quality available. I don't know of any other glues that are significantly less expensive AND near-equal quality.