When rapping off, do you ever depend on a friction knot to hold you?

M Sprague wrote: Rapping is not standard on a sport route in usual circumstances. The first person should lower off their own draws, the last directly through the anchors if there is a proper beefy sport anchor. The saved wear on your rope and anchors is not worth the added danger and time. Sport anchors should have beefy, easely replacable steel at the rope contact points. TRing and lowering repeatedly directly on the anchors should be avoided though. It is better that people contribute replacement 1/2" quicklinks or something similar to anchors regularly than rap off all the time. In a sport scenerio rapping should be saved for set back anchors or very sandy wear inducing conditions IMO. The scenerio in the OP seems like an accident waiting to happen to me and I see no good reason for it.

This has always been what I've followed, except for I never TR or lower repeatedly through the anchors. Even if we are taking turns leading, we leave the anchor draws up till we are finished.

Not going to touch the lowering vs. rapping debate.
To answer the OP question about using a friction hitch or 3rd hand to go hands free, is totally legit. If you can transfer a load onto one of these hitches in a belay escape or knot pass why wouldn't it work to back up a rappel? (assuming the friction hitch has a back up of some sort)
True they are not Knots and they can slip if tied incorrectly. Any knot or hitch tied incorrectly can fail to work.

So what to do?
Choose your hitch, Autoblock, Kliemheist or Prusik then tie and dress it correctly. Lastly before you unclip from the anchor TEST IT TO MAKE SURE IT BITES! If it slips retie it with an additional wrap.

Jacob Neathawk wrote:I like rapping off some steepish sport climbs to save wear on my rope. This is usefull if the anchor is back over the lip and there is a chance to rub(saw) the rope. I use an autoblock rigged to my leg loop and this seems to work pretty well for going hands free. Also have your partner there for a fireman belay as a backup.

FAIL. If the anchos is back over the lip, it is safer to lower. If you rap, you are subjecting one small portion of the rope to an edge. You are bouncing up and down on a dynamic rope. THAT is sawing.

If you lower, you are never subjecting one section of the rope to wear for more than a second.

The ethics will be different in every area. If it makes sense to rap, I usually try to. It does put less wear on the anchors. But there are many reasons why I choose to lower instead. Steep route, wandering route, I'm tired (which is usually the case as I am usually only cleaning a route at the end of the day).

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There are some more thoughts if anyone is interesting in rapping vs. lowering. My thoughts on the topic - it depends on the route.

To answer the OP's question about frition knots - I've never had one fail or slip. I usually use a Prusik tied with cord, or lacking that some nylon webbing. I don't consider using a friction knot with Dyneema, don't use friction knots with that material if you can at all avoid it.

Rather than debate the semantics of what he's doing here because it really doesn't matter how he cleans the route (and we don't know all the details) I'm going to toss a suggestion into the ring...cuz I'm on lunch, and bored lol.

Carry a prusik. If you rappel carry a prusik. Heck actually if you rappel carry two. I just keep a prusik loop on each leg loop at all times. They're there if you need it. When you rig the rappel rig the prusik. If you have to take both hands off the rope tie a stopper knot as close your setup as you can (I just toss a quick figure eight in it). The prusik should hold just fine, but it's not redundant and let's just say freak movement and the prusik slips you're effed in the ay. Stopper knot isn't going to slip, and it isn't going through your belay device. This is the safest way to do what you're describing. The leg wrap others mentioned works too, but to me this is the safest. I'd swing around like a kid on a playground on rapel rigged like that and feel just fine. If I'm rapping I pretty much ALWAYS rig a prusik unless I know I have a solid fireman's belay, and even still I'll often rig it as good practice.

I generally prefer to rappel rather than put unnecessary wear on the anchors, but I don't climb overhanging sport routes. In the situation you describe, lowering probably makes the most sense.

But to answer your question: yes, I do depend on a friction knot to hold me if I need to clear my rope, clean gear that my partner couldn't get, that sort of thing. I use a Sterling hollow block prusik (more friction than a standard cordalette prusik...two wraps and it's good) clipped to my belay loop on an extended rappel. Works great. But it's probably best to use a couple of leg wraps to back it up.

1. ill lower off routes that are overhanging if possible ... swinging back and forth on rap aint the safest way IMO

2. if i do rap off, i use my alpine smart, now it aint hands free, but it locks enough to hold on lightly on the rope

3. if i really am wearing out the fixed gear too much, i have a few quicklinks ill put on if it looks like itll benefit the anchors

IMO screw all the "ethics" (really a few people complaining) about fixed gear ... gear is cheap and ill replace it if needed ... lowering is often (not always) safe than rapping and life/health aint cheap

Jesus Christ, if you are trying to clean an overhung route just have your belayer lower you off.

OK?

Now DIE THREAD DIE.

Thanks everyone for the thoughts. I'm only rapping off at the end of the day (or use of a particular climb) when the rope is on fixed gear. Great info on the leg wraps, since I have never used those. Cheers!

Eamon Doyle wrote:Thanks everyone for the thoughts. I'm only rapping off at the end of the day (or use of a particular climb) when the rope is on fixed gear. Great info on the leg wraps, since I have never used those. Cheers!

:sigh:

Eamon Doyle wrote:Thanks everyone for the thoughts. I'm only rapping off at the end of the day (or use of a particular climb) when the rope is on fixed gear. Great info on the leg wraps, since I have never used those. Cheers!

Leave it to a gd ginger

Ryan Williams wrote: FAIL. If the anchos is back over the lip, it is safer to lower. If you rap, you are subjecting one small portion of the rope to an edge. You are bouncing up and down on a dynamic rope. THAT is sawing. If you lower, you are never subjecting one section of the rope to wear for more than a second. The ethics will be different in every area. If it makes sense to rap, I usually try to. It does put less wear on the anchors. But there are many reasons why I choose to lower instead. Steep route, wandering route, I'm tired (which is usually the case as I am usually only cleaning a route at the end of the day).

I have to disagree with your FAIL assessment. How often is the lip of the climb a super sharp edge that would potentially cut the rope? I was more talking about a slabby section that the rope grinds over as you are lowering which shortens the life of the rope. This scenario happened to me this past summer climbing the route Touch Monkey in the flatirons. The first few times i climbed this and lowered off, my rope got super frayed. I then wised up and started rapping which corrected the problem. Were you also tired when you replied to my post? you seemed a little grumpy

agree with jacob. even if there is a sharp lip, when you rap you don't necessarily have to bounce around (like a first time gym climber). you can rap down fairly smoothly and not really have an issue. on the other hand, if you are getting lowered, the weighted rope running over the edge can be like a potato peeler.

To the OP - leg wraps and fireman's backup from your partner should be good enough, not to mention he/she can help pull you towards that draw which is just annoyingly far to reach! A tip; you might want to clean the lowest draw before cleaning the second lowest (if you can reach) to reduce the swing, especially if very overhung and if the swing might put you in contact with a tree or boulder.

I have rap cleaned an overhanging sport route which has anchors set back from a lip. There will be some bouncing since one needs to work a bit and gyrate to reach the draws. The next time cleaning the same route, I elected to get lowered.

S. Neoh wrote:To the OP - leg wraps and fireman's backup from your partner should be good enough.

haha but I wouldn't at the same time. Ouch!!!

The firemans could be a problem, or rather, not really give you anything in this case.

Assuming you are a LA-area climber and hitting Malibu Creek/Echo Cliffs standard practice (as I understand it) is to have the leader build an anchor up top, have followers TR through said anchor, then have the final climber clean on the way up, untie and rethread, then get lowered off. This mitigates wear on the chains to a reasonable degree, simplifies cleaning, and is safer (assuming good communication between climber and belayer). Unless you are being super considerate of the route-equippers (which, by the nature of your question does not seem to be the primary concern) I cannot think of a situation in the local areas wear rapping would be required. Have fun and be safe! Best, Xan