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Can climbing be too safe?

Original Post
Ryan N · · Bellingham, WA · Joined May 2009 · Points: 195

I've been climbing for some years now. I have come to accept the risk that my adventure seeking behavior comes with. During a recent trip to a climbing gym both my leading style and my belaying style were put under heavy critique while taking a lead test. I'm not an unsafe climber myself, and while climbing rock, ice, and alpine routes all over the western US I have never had an accident. I have had a number of close calls and mini epics but have always got myself and partner out with no physical harm( sometimes a hurt ego), but always got home safe. There are many different ways in climbing to do it the "right" way. So is it more important to use the method that you are more comfortable with, or the newest "accepted" way of climbing? My point is I believe that climbing can become too safe at a risk to the climber by putting too much attention on mundane details and not enough on the situation at hand. Being able to be versatile in my climbing techniques allows me to choose certain methods for certain situations. Thoughts?

I know I'm gonna die.

kiff · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,035

too safe=boring in my opinion

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

What specifically did they think was unsafe?

Gym rules can be ridiculous, but hey, it's their gym and their rules. I can understand that for a gym it is hard to determine who is proficient and who is faking it, so it is often easier to standardize.

On the other hand, it is often the most experienced climbers I see with the worst belay habits. They are also often the ones who take criticism the worst...because they have been doing it that way for decades without an accident.

Josh Kornish · · Whitefish, MT · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 800

I'll just add that if Snake Dike was bolted every 10 feet it would be pretty boring and not worth it. Having the huge run outs is what made it fun.

Monomaniac · · Morrison, CO · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 17,295

I think gyms take on a lot of unnecessary liability when they force customers to conform to their arbitrary standards. I don't think the climber's resume is relevant, but the gym staff should be able to quickly tell if the climber is using a safe belay method. When you force someone to learn a new belay technique, chances are they will screw it up frequently until they have a few hours of solid reps under their belt.

It would be one thing if all the gyms could agree on a universal standard; then we would know if you want to belay in a gym, you need to put in the time to learn said technique. As it is gyms are all over the map: some only allow Grigris, some forbid grigris, some demand the "Bus Method", etc.

It would be interesting to see the aftermath if someone got seriously hurt or killed because a gym member required an experienced, safe climber to arbitrarily change their belay method.

Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

You're going to equate gym rules to the overall world of climbing!?! Seriously!?!
Now we get to watch page after page of blowhards spouting off how big they think their balls are.
That said, the kid that runs the wall at my gym is a frikkin nazi retard. He always asks what the '5 critical statements to make' before taking off are with every belay test, but also monitors that we do that. I once had my daughter on a tr but pulling up a rope too to practice clips and he shut us down as 'she needed to be taught' this by a certified gym dude. And yes, I've been climbing longer than he's been alive.

Ryan N · · Bellingham, WA · Joined May 2009 · Points: 195

The specific critique that got me upset was when I was belaying a leader, the staff member noticed that my brake hand was not close enough to my hip to be properly safe. It was on about 3-5 in under the belay device. That is what sparked the thought in my mind. I understand the liability a gym takes on, but maybe in some instances when a climber shows they are proficient at climbing/ belaying they might be safer doing it their way? It's not too hard to weed out a rookie or someone who hasn't been climbing for a while.

Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880
Ryan N wrote:The specific critique that got me upset was when I was belaying a leader, the staff member noticed that my brake hand was not close enough to my hip to be properly safe. It was on about 3-5 in under the belay device. That is what sparked the thought in my mind. I understand the liability a gym takes on, but maybe in some instances when a climber shows they are proficient at climbing/ belaying they might be safer doing it their way? It's not too hard to weed out a rookie or someone who hasn't been climbing for a while.
Just out of curiosity, are you talking about LFT in Parker?
Ryan N · · Bellingham, WA · Joined May 2009 · Points: 195

Living in Escondido,CA right now not Parker. But LTF in Parker could be a candidate for this same issue. I was a member there for 4years before quitting not because of climbing, but because it's a dirty ass place.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

What did they say when you pulled out the belay knife?

cdec · · SLC, UT · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 654
Ryan N wrote:the staff member noticed that my brake hand was not close enough to my hip to be properly safe. It was on about 3-5 in under the belay device.
Um, that would put the rope in the breaking position and would be safe IMO. Taking the hand to the Hip could be considered better but what you did was not unsafe.

I would have asked for an explanation of why what you where doing wasn't properly safe.
Blissab · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 5
Ryan N wrote:The specific critique that got me upset was when I was belaying a leader, the staff member noticed that my brake hand was not close enough to my hip to be properly safe. It was on about 3-5 in under the belay device. That is what sparked the thought in my mind. I understand the liability a gym takes on, but maybe in some instances when a climber shows they are proficient at climbing/ belaying they might be safer doing it their way? It's not too hard to weed out a rookie or someone who hasn't been climbing for a while.
Most and many gym staff are not blessed with common-sense, in so much as, what is considered safe and not safe, as opposed to what is considered a different style of safe climbing practice.

There are many forms and variations of safe climbing practice that are used by many climbers of different age generations. The problem stems from the fact that the gym teaches one style of climbing practice in accordance to insurance and gym policies to the typically inexperience and clueless staff member.

Then armed with this new-found information, this inexperience staff member religiously and rigidly mandates that all gym members, from hardcore ascentionist to the soccer moms, adhere to these regulations.

I would suggest that if you want to climb at a particular gym, just suck-it up and climb at the gym by adhering to the policies as best possible...it's better than not climbing at all in the off-season.
Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

Something I absolutely hate at the gyms is when they insist on that f'd up belay method where you lift the brake hand waaay up to 12:00 and do that stupid pinky lock to drop it down and pull slack. Everyone who not only teaches it that way but insists on it need to have crows pluck their eyeballs out

Crag Dweller · · New York, NY · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125

I've seen more than one instance in which the gym staff's critique was based on a checklist rather than the most critical safety elements.

In one instance, I was dinged for not tying a finishing knot on my figure 8. At another gym, I was told that I couldn't pass the test using a Yosemite finish.

I also climbed with a girl who'd learned to climb at a gym on the East coast. She was absolutely dogmatic about the importance of a finishing knot but I had to point out that her harness was so loose that she'd come out of it if she happened to flip upside down.

Ben Brotelho · · Albany, NY · Joined May 2011 · Points: 520

one word: liability.

Alex Mitchell · · Boston, MA · Joined May 2012 · Points: 2,367
El Tigre wrote:Something I absolutely hate at the gyms is when they insist on that f'd up belay method where you lift the brake hand waaay up to 12:00 and do that stupid pinky lock to drop it down and pull slack. Everyone who not only teaches it that way but insists on it need to have crows pluck their eyeballs out
+1
ChristopherAust · · Ohio · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
El Tigre wrote:Something I absolutely hate at the gyms is when they insist on that f'd up belay method where you lift the brake hand waaay up to 12:00 and do that stupid pinky lock to drop it down and pull slack. Everyone who not only teaches it that way but insists on it need to have crows pluck their eyeballs out
Huh?
DannyUncanny · · Vancouver · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 100

I work at a gym, the belay instruction is tied to the insurance policy. There is a document (I have no idea who wrote it) that outlines exactly what goes into every belay lesson or belay check. If the insurance company can prove that we are not following that document, they could have grounds to not cover our liability in the event of an accident.

Dankasaurus · · Lyons, CO · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 85

The cynic in me says:

Nothing can be too safe in our sissified, overly lawyered, overly surveilled, self-centered, greedy, godless, pathetic mainstream culture.

Vanilla answer:

Climbing is a very personal activity. Climbing can quickly become too safe or too dangerous, depending on the individual on the sharp end, his or her partner if present, and the situation.

cdec · · SLC, UT · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 654
DannyUncanny wrote:the belay instruction is tied to the insurance policy. There is a document (I have no idea who wrote it) that outlines exactly what goes into every belay lesson or belay check.
And there's the problem insurance companies setting the standard for teaching proper belay technique.
skeeter · · Lakewood CA · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 10

I went to a gym here in So Cal recently for the first time, and the employee told me he was too busy so didn't make me sign a waiver...he also didn't bother to check or share any belay "advice" just wanted my $$$

edit: It still felt too safe

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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