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Rebuilding winter layering system. suggestions?

Original Post
TDoyle · · Milford, MA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 140

Im working on rebuilding my winter layering system. I have base layers and just purchased a Patagonia Nano Puff. Any suggestions on WATERPROOF outer layers would be appreciated.

I'm having trouble finding good reviews for the Mammut Splide Pants. Has anyone used them or heard good/bad things about them? Are they truly waterproof?

Thanks!
-Tim

FreeRangeHuman · · safari van · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 0

I'm loving the Neoshell fabric, buy something with that

as for the mammut pants, sounds like they're a waterproof softshell (like neoshell) which is definitely not like a traditional softshell

edited to add: i'm usually wearing a t shirt, Patagonia R1 hoodie (get one of these), and a Neoshell climbing and skiing in the winter, with a puffy jacket of some sort in the pack

Kilroywashere! London · · Harrisonburg, Virginia · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 280

lovin some dryQ, looking forward to my second season of using it, def worth checking out, they have many different levels in different price ranges as well. i wear jacket and pants,
baselayers are a ceramic infused polypro by a company called back on track, keeps you warm and improves blood flow

if i could go back to it, i would probably get another R1 hoody, those things are the bomb.com

i have a MH Desna right now and like it alright, but when it gets to be any kind of aerobic activity, it is waaay to hot.

insulation im usually using my compressor, if its really bad, 850 fill down.

Ryan N · · Bellingham, WA · Joined May 2009 · Points: 195

The foundation of any great layering system starts with a patagucci R-1. In my opinion it's a must. Then I have a WM flash puffy and an Arcteryx atom sv for cold days. Then a shell I use the beta AR and alpha sv. Bottom line base layer, puffy, and shell.

TDoyle · · Milford, MA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 140

Thanks for the input!
The system I have used for a long time works but my outer layer is very bulky. I have a variety of base layers of different weights for different conditions, a fleece, and now I have the nano puff. I'm trying to get rid of the bulky winter jacket I've been using and replace it with the nano puff and a waterproof shell.

Obviously layering systems can vary person to person and with different conditions. So really all I need now is a waterproof shell.

I hike and camp year round. I ski/snowboard. and I'll be climbing as long as there isn't too much snow on the rocks (which could be year round in New England)
I apologize if I've been redundant.
Thanks again!

Nick K · · Denver, CO · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 30

I really like Rab gear. I have a Latok Alpine shell (the ultralight version of their Latok shell). It's eVent, so it breathes amazingly, and in spite of being the lightweight version, it's held up great to 3 years of skiing/snowboarding in the winter and being my rain shell in the summer. And at $200, it was cheaper by a long shot than anything equivalent offered by the competition.

As a bonus, it packs down pretty small too. And the hood fits over my ski helmet and all the hoods of my other layers with out a problem.

Matt Berrett · · utah · Joined May 2010 · Points: 10

check out the outdoor research axiom. amazing shell! outdoorresearch.com/en/or-g…

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

is this a "just in case" wpb shell ... in other words do you use a softshell for most conditions ... if it is consider something very light such as the OR helium, 6 oz ... its my go everywhere rarely used jacket ...

if its something you plan to use all the time in all conditions, consider something a tad more burly

drpw · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 0

stretchy synthetics under softshells when i'm moving and synthetic puffy stuff for when i'm not.

APBT1976 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 55

New England go anywhere layer system.

Synthetic boxer briefs

Patagonia Cap 1 Base layers.

Mid to light weight wool sock

Patagonia R1 mid layer R1 hoody is the gold standard.

Patagonia Alpine Guide Softshell pants. Mixed guide are nice also. New versions this year are sweet!

Neo Shell jacket. Quite a few manufactures are using this fabric now. Rab, Mammut, Westcomb, and maybe a few others. Google it.

Arcteryx Atom LT or SV jacket. Synthetic is key and Primaloft rocks. The Patagonia nano puff hoody is also great.

Liner glove. Mid weight Lightly insulated work type glove. Heavy glove and Mid weight mittens.

Brand does not matter so much between the top manufactures inop. Fit is much more important. For instance i am perfectly happy to wear all Patagonia and think the price is pretty good for what you get. On the other hand i am 5'10" and 135-145lbs so i wear Patagonia base layers and Mammut Pants and jacket.

Hope that helps. Have fun!!!

Kevin · · California · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 0

Grid fleece (e.g. Patagonia R1) is a solid base or mid layer. NWAlpine's Spider Light Hoody is lighter weight, if you run warm. In even colder temperatures, the Atom LT is an exceptional midlayer as well.

I prefer a softshell over a hardshell in the winter. Something with PowerShield is almost sure to keep you dry from the outside, but if you're super concerned PowerShield Pro is even "better." I like one without any fleece on the inside. You can even opt for something really light (e.g. Patagonia Houdini @ 4oz) here.

Many of my climbing partners swear by hardshell pants. I prefer softshell: they're breathable.

TDoyle · · Milford, MA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 140

"I think a better question to ask is why are you set on using a hardshell all the time?"

Its not that I'm committed to having a hardshell on every time I put the other layers on...if the conditions don't call for it, I won't wear it. However, I love going out it in snowy, wet conditions. Also, I don't have my license so I walk everywhere.
I have a really light weight MH rain jacket but after a few hours in somewhat heavy rain its soaked through. I haven't used many different shells so I don't know which materials I prefer, I just know I want something that will keep me dry for extended periods of time.
Thanks!
-Tim

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

Hardshells blow, the coldest and wettest I've ever been was with a hardshell on. Bearbreeders advice is right on, I have a lightweight shell that sits in the bottom of my pack for emergencies, I try to never wear it.

doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 269

Don't listen to Westerners poo-pooing on hard shells. I hated soft shells when climbing in New England - they are too hot when climbing and then they get wet and you're walking around in a frozen armor. It's always wet and running even if it's minus 40 outside in New England! People out west don't understand that you have to get out when it's full-on blowing snow and usually overcast to take advantage of the conditions. You don't have to get an expensive Gore-Tex, look into eVent fabric. Check the Wild Things outlet in North Conway, they usually have some good steals. I have a Rab Momentum shell which I'm not 100% happy with (hate where the pockets are, sticky zippers and an unflattering cut), but I found a good deal on it and it keeps me dry and warm.

TDoyle · · Milford, MA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 140

Could anybody please explain to me the waterproof rating system? I see a lot of jackets with a rating of 20,000mm or 25PSI, for example. I would assume it's as simple as the higher the number, the more waterproof it is? But what does it actually mean? and the "breathability rating"?
Thanks!
-Tim

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
TDoyle wrote:Could anybody please explain to me the waterproof rating system? I see a lot of jackets with a rating of 20,000mm or 25PSI, for example. I would assume it's as simple as the higher the number, the more waterproof it is? But what does it actually mean? and the "breathability rating"? Thanks! -Tim
ignore it all ... as long as its a reputable fabric from a reputable manufacturer youll be fine ... event, goretex, etc are "waterproof" ... neoshell is considered "effectively waterproof" ... everyone measures breathability numbers differently for marketing purposes ... its all hocus pocus to confuse you

not to say that some jackets arent more "breathable" than others ... but note in the recent backpackinglight.com comparison a <100$ jacket (on sale) house branded from backcountry.com was found to outperform a lof of $$$$$ jackets with $$$$$ fabrics ... they used humidity monitors on a real world hike to test

heres the best resource if you want to understand it ...

rei.com/learn/expert-advice…

to understand how much is just marketing go here ...

outsideonline.com/outdoor-g…

more important than all the fancy meaningless marketing department generated "facts" is an absolutely utter and stellar warranty with no questions asked ... because no matter how many dead birds or patagucci stickers you put in the jacket, rain jacket failure and delamination can happen ...

companies like OR, EB, REI, etc ... all stand 100% behind their products no matter when, where it was bought or how it was used or abused
Kevin · · California · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 0
TDoyle wrote:Could anybody please explain to me the waterproof rating system? I see a lot of jackets with a rating of 20,000mm or 25PSI, for example. I would assume it's as simple as the higher the number, the more waterproof it is? But what does it actually mean? and the "breathability rating"? Thanks! -Tim
The waterproof rating is a measure of just "how waterproof" a jacket is. A jacket of a rating of 20,000mm means the fabric starts to let in water (the test is two or three droplets) when a water column of 20,000mm is applied to its top. In reality, none of us are using our waterproof garments that way - rain is a dynamic, rather than static, force. In the UK, I think the standard for "waterproof" is about 1,000mm of pressure. Google hydrostatic head testing for much more information.

The breathability rating is much more simple to understand. In 24 hours, a square meter of fabric allows x amount of water vapor to pass through it. Replace x with the tested amount.

You might guess that if a fabric is not very waterproof, it would be incredibly breathable. So a jacket like a Sierra Designs Hurricane has a hydrostatic head rating of 5,000mm, but a breathability rating of just 5,000g/m2. Compare that to a Gore-Tex shell, which may have numbers of 28,000mm hydrostatic head, and breathability in excess of 20,000g/m2. Different waterproofing technologies bring different results; Gore-Tex operates differently than a PU coating which operates differently than eVent which is different from NeoShell because they are fundamentally different.
Auto-X Fil · · NEPA and Upper Jay, NY · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 50

If you need to walk around town in the rain, you need a plain old rain jacket. If you're not sweating, anything waterproof will keep you dry.

For use in the mountains in winter, don't wear a hardshell. If it's cold enough not to rain (in other words, if the skiing or ice climbing are good), a softshell will keep you much drier by allowing sweat to leave much faster than any soft of shell, even Neoshell.

For being in the mountains when it's raining... you're going to get wet. Sorry. The best you can do is keep your pack contents dry and learn how to set up a tent in the rain without soaking all your gear.

Daniel Wade · · Oakland, CA. · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 55

Check out the new Neoshell jacket from TNF - it's called the Jammu.

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

Steady down-poors and I'm going home. Unexpected rain and I pull out my super inexpensive and lightweight RAB waterproof shell (8oz). Otherwise I wear a softshell, I don't care how wet the snow is. Also, all that fancy breathability crap is worthless when your jacket is wet outside. I've had namebrand $400+ hardshells that soaked water into the face fabric making them a high dollar trash bag. I've been marginally wet in a softshell and got dry faster than my partners wearing hardshells.

Its worth noting that some people in this thread say softshells let wind through, and some say softshells are too hot. The conclusion is that their is a wide variety of hardshells and softshells and only experience is going to tell you which will work best for you.

Eric G. · · Saratoga Springs, NY · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 70

Really interesting thread--everyone has their own methods.

I am very comfortable in the hills of New England in winter, even for very long days. I value breathability over everything else--I am usually the most lightly dressed of anyone I see out on a particular day. If I get cold or wet, I move, and I dry out. I usually end these days surprisingly dry.

That said, I always carry an 800 fill compressor puffy, and put it on whenever I'm not moving.

Also, hoods are key. By adding and removing hoods, you can regulate your temperature (and sweat) very effectively.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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