Do you speak up when seeing someone making mistakes?

Be smart about it if its something that isn't good technique its not a big deal. If someone could seriously get hurt say something and if they don't like it or don't listen it becomes natural selection.

i worked for a while in a climbing gym with sometimes 300 people climbing at the same time. when we had to do our rounds to check on the guests you see a lot of interesting things what people do with belay devices. most of them just do minor mistakes, but there's so many that just don't seem to be able to handle a complex task like belaying. and i've seen climbers being dropped from belayers that climbed and belayed for 30 years (but they may have never used a grigri or an ATC before or were never properly trained to do so) and also from the beginners.

so, of course, as staff you have to tell the people what they're doing wrong or sometimes don't even allow them to belay anyone.
no matter how you approach those people, no matter how obvious the danger was, the responses are always snotty.

so as i'm used to give those advices in the gym and also as instructor, at the crag i usually point out bad belay techniques or dangerous mistakes, but will always tell them why it is a bad technique and/or mistake and show them a better way (most of the times i have a good story to tell about the particular mistake and how it caused people to get f*cked up because of it. if you climb SEVERAL DECADES :p you'll see enough of it). and funny enough, i never got a snotty response outside.

Scott McMahon wrote: My defensive respose is directly due to our dickish post, which apparently has zero relation to what you just said. Do you mind your own business or do you "give and recieve advice early and often"? You've been deep in the shit, but haven't seen any of the common mistakes I've mentioned? I'm a noob babysitter and you talk about teaching others? Honestly I'm not getting much out of your contradicting ramblings.

Reading comprehension is hard huh? I said YOU should mind YOUR business. You then accused me of not giving a shit. I corrected you. I mind my business, and when I see something DANGEROUS I will say something. Difference between you and I is that I'm not such a pretentious dick about it.

As for shit hitting the fan. Have you ever got fucked up climbing? I have, some of my friend have. Sometimes shit flies, and when it does gravity is unforgiving.

You being a know it all and pointing out everyone else's flaws kinda says you may not be open minded enough to know when shit is starting to go south.

Randy W. wrote: Difference between you and I is that I'm not such a pretentious dick about it.

Quoted for effect.

This really isn't that much of a dilemma...

If you can prevent a serious accident or fatality by speaking up, isn't speaking up the right thing to do?

If you see climbers being unsafe, politely point it out. They have the choice of addressing the safety issue or ignoring it. If they take your advice, you might have prevented a serious accident or fatality. You will have a clearer conscious if they don't heed your advice and something goes wrong.

The actions of the unsafe climbers doesn't just affect them, it affects EVERYONE around them. If a serious accident or fatality happens, you will be in the middle of it, and it is a VERY unpleasant and unsettling experience, even for trained rescuers.

I was a member of Teton County SAR for twelve years, and had the unfortunate task of responding to an inexperienced climber who mis-clipped the anchors at the top of a climb on Rodeo Wall, and fell 90 feet to the ground. The climber survived the fall, but died at the base shortly after we arrived...the sights, sounds, and smells of that evening are unpleasantly burned into my memory forever.

I thought I was going to witness a similar trajedy, the whole deal, not just the aftermath - last weekend on Beehive Buttress at Vedauwoo, a newer sport area with many moderate, well bolted routes.

A rowdy group of three men were climbing a 5.8. One man led the climb taking 3 noisy falls (shouting/swearing) at the crux near the top, but made it to the top and lowered off, cleaning the draws as he went. The lead climber wanted the second to follow the route and change it over from a toprope through two draws to a rappel through the anchors.

The dialog between the climbers made it obvious that the follower had NEVER changed over an anchor from toprope to rappel! The second didn't even have his own gear - the leader took off his harness and ATC and gave it to the follower, who then completed the climb on the top rope. Fortunately, the climber realized he didn't know what he was doing and asked if there was any way to walk off, and there isn't.

The lead climber instructed him to take off the harness, lower it, and he would come up to the anchors and change them over. So, the follower was on the ledge unanchored for about 15 minutes!

The lead climber made it to the top, but it turns out the follower wasn't experienced at rappelling, so they swapped the harness again (TWO people unanchored at the same time), and fortunately (luckily?) they both made it down.

After my partner and I finished the climb we were on, I went over and talked with them. They were not overly receptive. So I described my experience in all it's gory detail - perhaps they got a glimpse of what could have easily happened. Don't know if it had any affect, since they pulled their rope and left.

If I ever do something unsafe, I hope that those around me will do the right thing and tell me about it. I'll smile and give a big "thanks!"

Here's another idea which may help in deciding what action to take:

"Philosophical difference vs. fatal flaw!"

If a climber is doing something in a different way than I do, but I can't see any safety issues with it, it is simply a philosophical difference. An argument here is an endless Moebius loop, and a waste of time. Sometimes I do get curious, and I'll just say "I've never seen it done that way before, what are the benefits of doing it that way?" Learned a few things with this approach.

A fatal flaw is when a climber is doing something that has been proven to be unsafe (backclipping, tying into harness improperly, etc.). Time to politely speak up. I've found it's useful to explain why it's unsafe, or demonstrate. For example, when people don't understand what can happen with a backclip, I demostrate...which is usually followed by an "oooh, I get it now!"

Arlo F Niederer wrote:... "Philosophical difference vs. fatal flaw!"...

Philosophically, I believe that my partner is more likely to find it in himself to send the route if he knows that my brake hand is holding a frosty beer and I'm trying to find a way to spark a bowl with only the one other hand. Hence, my 'bad technique' is not, in fact, bad but, rather, a form of supportive motivation.

Darren Mabe wrote:one way to get your point across is to passive-aggressively post it on mp.

No kidding. Not to mention the OP picture caption is wrong to begin with.

Arlo, nicely articulated thoughts. I don't know who installed them, but the two-bolt anchors that appeared at the base of the Shield and Rodeo Wall after the accident you describe are a great idea IMO. Definitely a nice teaching resource to have available for the multitude of neophytes at those two crags.

the problem about pointing it out these days, is as mentioned, quite a few newish climbers will say it quite loudly just to show off how much they know ... i see this almost every week at the popular crags ...

everyone who knows what they are doing and experienced that ive seen will have a quiet and private word with the person in question ...

i remember a while back these people who were new and couldnt even climb a 5.8 clean proclaim very loudly that another parties anchor was unsafe .... basically it was a snake cord anchor that andy kirkpatrick recommends, similar to a rabbit runner ... a guide later told em that it was safe ... the problem is that once they learned a SERENE anchor they went around thinking everything else wasnt "safe"

i see a lot of stupid shiet in the bluffs ... but unless its obviously dangerous i just ignore it ... otherwise id have to get into an argument every day ... just because it aint "best practices" or the way i do it doesnt mean itll kill you ...

when i DO see something that has immediate threat of harm ill move my azz faster that flash gordon ... last year some girl called off belay at the top, her partner wandered off, and then she shouted lower ... i moved faster than light speed to put her on belay ...

all the newbie crags have "experts" just waiting to tell you or other people loudly how you should climb or unsafe you are... many of these "experts" cant lead their way out of a wet paper bag and have new shiny gear ... weve all seen it ...

Hello everyone,

I really hate that I have to get on here and do this, but I am the belayer in question. Unfortunately, Matt has skewed the facts of this situation, and I feel it is necessary to straighten it out.

For starters, I'm not sure why Matt called the climber a girl, it was my friend who is a 6'3" bearded guy. We were climbing at Canal Zone in Clear Creek Canyon on a 5.8 climb. When Matt arrived, he came up to me and pointed out that he thought the draws were backclipped. I looked at the first bolt, and it was correctly clipped (it was a funny angle, but it was definitely clipped correctly). I got defensive and responded that they were fine (admittedly, I'm sure I came off as an asshole). Upon further inspection, I realized that the second clip was, in fact, backclipped. Once I realized this, I corrected myself and said he was right.

We had a brief conversation about climbing, and he went on his way. Matt is correct, I did not immediately tell my friend that he had backclipped. My reasoning was that he was already near the next clip, I didn't want to make him nervous (it was his second lead ever), and the climb was well within his capability. This may have not been the correct decision, and I'm sorry I did not make a public display to correct my friend that Matt was able to see.

This is where the story gets a little embellished. After the first clip (and Matt pointing out the backclip), I was very attentive of my climber's clipping. He did not backclip again on the route. I know this because we were in a group and at this point there was another person (actually the girl belaying next to me that was mentioned) also keeping an eye on my climber.

When my climber returned to the ground. I made sure to point out to him the backclip. I also made sure that he understood why it was dangerous and how he could avoid it in the future. Thinking back, I should have been more attentive from the start of the climb because of my climber's inexperience with leading.

To Matt specifically:

Next time, please be an adult and come talk to me directly. I'm sorry that you felt the need to take pictures with your phone and post it for strangers to discuss when I had no idea you were still so concerned about it. I hate that I have to come on the internet and defend my honor when we could have settled this like adults. If you would like to discuss the situation further, please send me a private message.

I have not read much of this thread. On topic, however, I am an avid believer that dangerous climbing should be called out. There should never be injuries or deaths that are preventable because someone didn't speak up.

Finally, if I am wrong, and I am not the person that Matt is referring to, then I am sorry. However, I have that exact rope, my friend has those exact draws with the exact same tape on them, and I was in this exact situation last week.

I love that one might join mp just for this.... Makes me realize my iPad has supplanted my tv as the most evil inanimate object in my life... And yes please tell my belayer if he's f'ing up... and if he stays quiet, yell up to me. What if I just read the thread on practicing falling and am about to jump while my belayer is keeping this little backclip secret to keep me calm????

JMo wrote: And yes please tell my belayer if he's f'ing up... and if he stays quiet, yell up to me. What if I just read the thread on practicing falling and am about to jump while my belayer is keeping this little backclip secret to keep me calm????

+1

Also, Mr. Cucinella, you just ruined my next fab post, which would have been (yelling up to the "female"):

"Hey there honey, when I got the impetus to take my eyes off your skinny halter-top back and finely-carved rock-hard legs, I noticed that you were back clipped, and your pard has yet said nothing about it! The rope comes OUT of the quickdraw, NOT IN!"

There are subtle ways to say things.

"Unfortunately, Matt has skewed the facts of this situation...For starters, I'm not sure why Matt called the climber a girl, it was my friend who is a 6'3" bearded guy..."

I did so to make my post as anonymous as possible. I cropped your buddy out of the photo, did NOT mention the date, did NOT mention the crag or route etc. I provided enough information to ask my question.

I did not embellish anything - the photo I have shows your buddy resting on a ledge chalking up at the third bolt after backclipping it - this is when I chose to walk up and have a close look for myself and say something.

In the end I felt as though I did the adult thing and mentioned it. I dont know you or your buddy or your friends so there really was no way for me to follow up with you was there?

In the end - I did my best to not "call anyone out" specifically. My post could have included your buddies pic with a topic that read "look what this douchebag did the other day..." I did not do this.

I apologize to you and your friends if you felt my comments were inappropriate...it wasnt my intention to embarrass you...

Matt

LOL! This tread was boring until the supposed NOOB in question chimed in. I love the forums.

Unless I'm sure someone's about to eat shit I don't bother speaking up, not worth the trouble. Bitches get all huffy and puffy usually when their skills get questioned.

Someone made a good point that it's best to wait until the climber is stable before mentioning a back-clip. Back-clips aren't certain death. After stabilization my favorite line is "Hey, can I give you guys a tip?". This seems to diffuse the impression that I'm about to impose a decree.

On the internet however we can be big fat dicks all day apparently, so without further ado...

Anthony, sounds like a bit of a clusterfuck is going on, you and your friends should get their shit together before someone gets hurt.

Matt, mind your own fucking business.

;)

Matt Pierce wrote:"Unfortunately, Matt has skewed the facts of this situation...For starters, I'm not sure why Matt called the climber a girl, it was my friend who is a 6'3" bearded guy..." I did so to make my post as anonymous as possible. I cropped your buddy out of the photo, did NOT mention the date, did NOT mention the crag or route etc. I provided enough information to ask my question. I did not embellish anything - the photo I have shows your buddy resting on a ledge chalking up at the third bolt after backclipping it - this is when I chose to walk up and have a close look for myself and say something. In the end I felt as though I did the adult thing and mentioned it. I dont know you or your buddy or your friends so there really was no way for me to follow up with you was there? In the end - I did my best to not "call anyone out" specifically. My post could have included your buddies pic with a topic that read "look what this douchebag did the other day..." I did not do this. I apologize to you and your friends if you felt my comments were inappropriate...it wasnt my intention to embarrass you... Matt

Perfect example of a n00b trying to make himself feel good and not feel like a n00b by calling other people out. Classic!

Hello, I have copied this section from the Australian climbing forum chockstone.org. They were having a similar discussion and this gem came up about when it was appropriate to interfere -

On 24/11/2010 gordoste wrote:
>The question is not whether you're more or less risky than someone else,
>it's whether the people around you are OK with your risk-taking, considering
>they could be involved in picking up the pieces.

So Gordo, I'm pretty sure that this is an admission of your unnatural obsession with other people's helmet wearing, and a belief that if anyone wants to climb in your vicinity they need to do things your way.........you wish to be recognised as cragboss.

How about, instead of picking and choosing bits of safety to freak about, we deal with all safety matters in a consistant manner?......with the help of my new safety product!

Introducing the Hero Universal Dangerousness Table (HUDT)

Its rather simple, every climbing action is rated on a scale of dangerousness. You are free to decide your own level of acceptable dangerousness, and are free to object to any action beyond that level which occurs in your presence. If you decide to object to one action at a certain level of dangerousness, you may not condone any action at a higher level of dangerousness without signing a hypocrit registration form.

My HUDT

4 - me leading Skink with a helmet on

8 - me leading Skink without a helmet on

13 - driving to araps from NSW

17 - dropping aerosols in the fire at araps while a little smashed (optional helmet)

24 - newish climber with a good mechanical brain and gr19 max, leading Skink onsight (helmet)

27 - as above, but without helmet

31 - numpty leading a sport route at nowra, falling a lot, fumbled clips and newb belaying (helmet of course)

34 - me climbing the least dangerous long routes in the dolomites (definitely helmet)

40 - the point at which I will politely try to intervene in a dodgy situation

42- The local guys we met at Slider Wall. This dude brought his non-climbing (and crack smoking) mate to belay him on his project.........scariest belaying in history

47 - art brained newish climber who doesn't have the mechanical skills to service a pushbike, leading easy trad routes at araps as their terrible gear falls out...(helmet on but lopsided)

55 - the point at which I will walk away from the crag to avoid having to watch someone splat themselves

67 - anything Lucky Chance does

85 - M9's learn to aid course where beginners are sandbagged up 1st ascent death routes

94 - Macca doing the 2nd ascent of Shai Halud

As you can see, it would be hypocritical of me to climb in the Dolomites at all and still round on people for clip fumbling and suss belays at Nowra.....so I don't do it! If Macca wishes to climb death-choss, thats his choice. I just wouldn't hang around to watch.

Care to draw up your table, gordon?

Watched a hardcore gumby with his shirt off running a tr which was 1 strand of 5mm cord tied around a tree extended 20ft Hamging over the edge with 1 locker and his girlfriend on the other end. I pulled him aside, explained what was wrong and asked his girlfriend to come down. He was so rmbaraased and scared when I said 'you are lucky you didn't just kill her' that he packe up and left.

well let me get this straight ... someone backclipped one draw, but clipped the rest fine ... you told the belayer, and they told the climber after they came down ...

now perhaps you should have shouted it out to the climber at the time, or told the belayer he should perhaps tell the climber immediately ... or perhaps sketching out the climber above their gear aint the best idea on a moderate ... who knows

but you just HAD to post it online about it with photos ;)

i see nothing different than those guys who run around the intrawebs posting up photos of less than idea anchors which wouldnt necessarily be "dangerous" ... just to show off how much they know about TRing =P

What is tricky is that "unsafe" is often in the eye of the beholder, and there are folks with a lot of doctrinaire beliefs who are quite ready to characterize any deviation from they way they do things as unsafe. They say they are trying to save lives, but to a whole lot of others it is just an attempt to promote whatever orthodoxy the critics subscribe to.

Personally, I won't say anything unless I think the party is in imminent danger and is completely unaware of it. I think there are better and worse ways of doing many things, but I don't impose these views on climbers in the field. If I feel I must intrude (because that's what unsolicited advice is, an intrusion) I try to be pleasant and positive about it and not say things are being done wrong. And then I walk away---no arguments ever.

Clipping hollow aluminum rings for a belay is an interesting example. The SMC hollow rings have a 3-sigma rating of 14 kN---two of them are plenty strong if they haven't been worn through by rope pulls and/or toproping. So, if the rings aren't worn, I don't see anything close to imminent danger there, even though personally I wouldn't clip them for a belay anchor.

What might be dangerous is whatever the rings are attached to, old tat perhaps, but that is another story.

This is the kind of thing I might argue about on a forum, but I wouldn't have said anything about it to climbers in the field, and indeed I think their dismissive replies, even if ultimately misguided from my perspective, were made with some justification.

I've argued with bearbreeder at the end of this thread on rc.com about rigging methods---perhaps he is even referring to me in his snide comments---but I wouldn't say a word to him out at the crag his rigging choices, and that includes if I was climbing with him, because there is nothing remotely close to imminent danger in his methods.

On the other hand, a person with a string of backclipped biners (not just one) definitely needs a bit of friendly advice.