Belayers not anchoring themselves

Jake, that's a bad accident not to mention not an easy hike out from there. It looks like Piton Crack at Old Rag, VA. I'm glad you were able to get your friend out safely on one leg.

Just curious, did he fall onto one of the old pins or his own gear?

Michael Urban wrote:...What the hell is the belayer going to do should he/she be 20 ft off the ground and need to ever get help?

If you really don't know how to handle this situation, you shouldn't be belaying in the first place.

First, let me dispel the idea that everyone anchored at the ground BITD and sport climbing somehow changed that. I've been climbing for more than 55 years. Over that period, I've climbed with many of the best U.S. climbers and a few from the U.K. None of the famous ones, and none of the rest of us, ever anchored on the ground except for the obvious special circumstances already mentioned upthread. The only people I ever saw regularly anchoring on the ground were the Appies.

I still don't anchor at ground level and don't know anyone who does as a matter of course, and quite a few of my partners are in my advanced age range, so this has nothing to do with old or new school orientation. The simple reason is that it is rarely necessary and there are advantages to belayer mobility, such as being able to get out of the way of falling objects.

On trad climbs, the position of the belayer relative to the first piece can be critical, and anchors are not always in the correct place for that positioning. Higher up on the route, the party will have to live with this, but on the ground the belayer can just walk over to the best location.

In the case of considerable weight discrepancy, anchoring is desirable to keep the belayer from flying up to the first piece. Various studies as well as theoretical considerations suggest that only a very small amount of lifting, an amount fully consistent with an anchor that isn't cinched down tight, reduces anchor loads; the rest has no value for fall energy absorbtion, so all that lifting just results in a much bigger leader fall. For peak load reduction, anchoring the belayer does not have to have any adverse result if they can be pulled up a foot or two.

But soft catches for short falls on steep walls are very important for preventing high body impacts from penduluming into the wall, and this is a different concern from peak load reduction. However, assuming, as is often the case on overhanging sport climbs, that there is nothing to hit, the effects of penduluming can also be mitigated by just giving the leader more slack so that they fall further---this is not a dynamic belay, and it can be done while anchored.

So, as usual, it depends. I'd say that not anchoring the belayer on the ground is the default option, with special circumstances changing that decision as needed.

Kbird wrote: I've recently been climbing with someone double my size (I'm 110, he's probably 220ish---obviously not the best partner scenario, I know!) and we've discussed this at length. I'd rather go up 10 feet if he fell instead of being broken in half anchored down. It works the other way too---if I'm taking a lead fall I'd rather him jump up a little to soften the fall so that I'm once again not broken in half. But of course this is all circumstantial----it depends on the climb, the area, the partner, etc.....I just think it'd hurt a lot more being anchored down than being a little more dynamic with it.

You are not using the haul loop to anchor, are you? If not, I'm not sure I understand your getting broken in half comment.

On the other hand, unless it is not at ground level, i.e.:a pitch or more up, I don't think I've anchored in a very long time. Any time I've had my belayer anchor because the belay location is on a smaller ledge some ways off the ground it is usually a loose tether so they can still move.

Seems to me that one big difference, especially concerning the old-school vs sport climbing camps, is that a lot of older climbers started with hip belays, which were naturally very dynamic. Also, hip belaying and getting yanked up into the air would make it really hard to keep control of the belay. Also, that old gold line is really dynamic to begin with. Of course with sport climbing you have things like Gri-gris which make for a harder catch to begin with, and you're falling a lot more.

I don't see a problem with being pulled up into the air when belaying TR. I would also say that for lead belaying, anything that reduces the force of the fall is probably good.

Of course if you're on a multipitch climb you need to be anchored anyways.

Either case I dont see being an old crusty climber who is stuck in their ways as a good thing. Like Jake said I think any "always do this" rules are never a good idea, gotta be able to adapt and being stuck in 1960 is not a good thing.

Ripped 10 feet off the ground on TR? something must be wrong i have TR belayed people 60+ pounds heavier than me and never been ripped into the air.....picked up for sure though. For a lead belay if someone weighs a bit more i anchor down for sure...mainly to protect the anchor(multipitch) and not myself. if you anchor yourself down and someone whips just know you are smashing right into the rock....hard

CJC wrote: yes. if i'm leading with a much smaller belayer i'll tie her off to something, like a baby or a dog.

Tying her off to the boombox makes more sense I think.

ditto what rgold said, pretty much verbatim (other than his climbing 30 years longer than i have). i don't know where people got the notion that anchoring at ground level used to be the norm(?).

Here is a pretty good video for some ideas on belay techniques (see 7:30 for "jump belay"). As previously stated, situations vary as are the techniques. Notice that the climbers in this video are on over-hung sport routes.

youtube.com/watch?v=i6EzpBa…

John Ross wrote:Here is a pretty good video for some ideas on belay techniques (see 7:30 for "jump belay"). As previously stated, situations vary as are the techniques. Notice that the climbers in this video are on over-hung sport routes.

Uhhh thanks for the grigri commercial I guess??

LeeAB wrote: You are not using the haul loop to anchor, are you? If not, I'm not sure I understand your getting broken in half comment. On the other hand, unless it is not at ground level, i.e.:a pitch or more up, I don't think I've anchored in a very long time. Any time I've had my belayer anchor because the belay location is on a smaller ledge some ways off the ground it is usually a loose tether so they can still move.

I've never used the haul loop to anchor, although picturing it sounds like it would hurt as well ;-) I've just noticed that any time I am anchored in, belaying and the person takes a fall (especially someone who is about double my size), I'll go flying up as the anchor keeps me down---thus the 'breaking in half' feeling. Maybe that's not the best expression to use, but if the person weighs a lot more than you then taking that impact can feel pretty rough.

Michael Urban wrote:I see to be seeing a lot of belayers these days belaying on the ground not anchored to anything for the 1st picth of a climb or top roping and watching the leader fall and the belayer being yanked up off their feet 10 or more feet up in the air. Isn't this a bad practice should the belayer need to excape the belay and get help in the event of a emergency or injury?

I'm having a tough time imagining an accident scenario on a first pitch where the belayer escaping the belay would be the best response.

Gunkiemike wrote: I'm having a tough time imagining an accident scenario on a first pitch where the belayer escaping the belay would be the best response.

Why Mike? You don't think a leader fall from 100 ft up that could result in a leader fracturing a bone or being knocked unconscious? It isn't gonna do the belayer on the ground much good to just stand there and not go get help, etc - esp if in a remote area.

Michael Urban wrote: Why Mike? You don't think a leader fall from 100 ft up that could result in a leader fracturing a bone or being knocked unconscious? It isn't gonna do the belayer on the ground much good to just stand there and not go get help, etc - esp if in a remote area.

You don't need to be anchored to deal w/that situation.

theres no real point in anchoring except for the circumstances other people have indicated ...

also as a note ... IF you have a much lighter belayer where you do want to anchor lower down but also want a dynamic catch higher up ... you can simply take some old rope or cord and tie em in about the length to the first bolt (10-20 ft in most cases) ... put a biner on a clove/fig 8 at the start that clips em short ... when the climber gets high enough they can just unclip that with one hand quickly ... also prevents em from smacking the first bolt if the length is right ...

Kbird wrote: I've never used the haul loop to anchor, although picturing it sounds like it would hurt as well ;-) I've just noticed that any time I am anchored in, belaying and the person takes a fall (especially someone who is about double my size), I'll go flying up as the anchor keeps me down---thus the 'breaking in half' feeling. Maybe that's not the best expression to use, but if the person weighs a lot more than you then taking that impact can feel pretty rough.

The only impact you should feel is getting yanked off your feet, what your anchoring to should be attached to your belay device locker or your belay loop. You could even set it up (though you would not be able to move) so that you took no force and the anchor took all of it, not that this would be preferred. Are you sitting down when the climber falls because you are worried about being yanked too high? This would increase the force on you as well as the climber, thug you would still get pulled up with a dramatic weight difference. If you are anchored loosely it might still be beneficial to rise into the catch.

rgold wrote:First, let me dispel the idea that everyone anchored at the ground BITD and sport climbing somehow changed that...I still don't anchor at ground level and don't know anyone who does as a matter of course, and quite a few of my partners are in my advanced age range, so this has nothing to do with old or new school orientation.

Roger that. 30 years. Never anchor on the ground (exceptions covered above).

I'm a touch larger than most of my climbing partners, but, even so, one of my regular partners never anchors in at the bottom even though there's a significant weight difference between us. She's caught some longer, hard falls of mine. Soft catch. Tugged her up a bit. No harm done.

FWIW...

Brian in SLC wrote: I'm a touch larger than most of my climbing partners, ...

You are built for comfort. A love machine if you will.

PT

Woodchuck ATC wrote: This seems to be logical if you are whipping on an old hemp rope. Isn't it the purpose of a dynamic rope to cushion the fall for safety, without any jumping belay, intentional rope slippage or any other non secured belay method? I don't know when it all changed over to not being a STOPPER catch. Guess it is another change of philosophy in climbing technique that I just ignored with experience.

If you are "whipping" on an old hemp rope, you are probably about to die.