Bolts Bolts Bolts

Jon O'Brien wrote:why lay out all those bolts like that and not paint em?

I dunno, I think there are good reasons NOT to cammo. It depends on the crag. Obviously its essential to keep a low profile at certain crags (like those with lots of non-climbing visitors). But for a 15 pitch route in Mexico, at a crag where climbing is embraced by the local non-climbers, nobody except climbers will see 95% of the bolts, and they are probably hard to see at that. Its not a bad thing to keep them easy to find when wandering up a 2000' face.

In Spain I've seen hangers that are color-coded for certain routes, on faces with multi-pitch lines that cross each other.

Perin Blanchard wrote: See here and here. The short version is that the Fixe is only (easily) removable in temporary installations with the sleeve flange above the hanger. With the sleeve flange above the hanger it is possible for repeated loadings to pull the sleeve out of the hole if the nut is loose.

Perin, you're referring to the Fixe Triplex? Assuming one has an appropriate hanger, meaning the bolt-hole in the hanger is properly sized for the bolt, it would be impossible to install the Triplex in a way that the flange would be on the front of the hanger. The sleeve will not fit through an appropriate hanger. Yet if it did as you noted in your first sentence, such an installation could be deathly wrong since the leverage, when weighting the hanger, would result in the hanger pulling the sleeve out of the hole if the nut is the least bit loose. The flange must be seated between hanger and rock, not on the outside or front of the hanger.

As for ease of removal, it's simple. Back-off the nut to the end of the stud but do not remove the nut from the stud. Tap the nut, which keeps you from tapping the end of the stud and potentially damaging the threads. The tapping pushes the stud/expansion cone out of the sleeve and slightly deeper into the hole. Remove nut from stud. Using a thin blade of some sort to pry under the flange and pliers to grab the flange, remove the sleeve from the hole. Remove the stud. You're left with a clean hole.

Removing a Triplex is far easier than trying to fish-out the pieces of a 5-piece.

The core-drilling procedure sounds very problematic on many levels; expensive and requires ever-increasingly larger holes for every replacement cycle.

Peter, drilling speed depends on several variables (type of rock, sharpness of bit, hammer weight and ability to continuously pound hard from a solid stance. Holes alone can take from 10-30 minutes.

ClimbBaja wrote: Triplex bolt is safer when placed with the sleeve flange flush against the rock and using a 10mm hanger. The safety reason is cited above by Perin and ABB. The only disadvantage is that subsequent removal is slightly more difficult.

That is 100% true. But even better yet is to cut off the flange all together. The problem is the flange sticks out of the rock which generally results in the hanger failing to sit flush with the rock. This often results in spinners and loose nuts. So if you chop the flange off the hanger will rest against the rock nicely and the chances of you getting a spinner drop drastically.

ABB wrote:Assuming one has an appropriate hanger, meaning the bolt-hole in the hanger is properly sized for the bolt, it would be impossible to install the Triplex in a way that the flange would be on the front of the hanger. The sleeve will not fit through an appropriate hanger. Yet if it did as you noted in your first sentence, such an installation could be deathly wrong since the leverage, when weighting the hanger, would result in the hanger pulling the sleeve out of the hole if the nut is the least bit loose.

The recommended way of installing the bolt, per Fixe, is to use a 12mm hanger, drill a 12mm hole and place the flange over the hanger. However, I completely agree with you, that is not a safe way to install the bolt. Outwards leverage on the flange can result in catastrophic bolt failure if the nut is not thoroughly tight. The best option is to cut the flange off and use a 10mm hanger.

It should also be noted that you MUST use a 12mm bit, not a 1/2" bit. I was able to pull out properly torqued Triplex bolts with only about 5 kN when they were installed in a 1/2" hole.

Anyone find a good, consistent dealer online for the SS Hilti's?

The Dread Pirate Killis wrote:Plated bolts matched with plated hangers will outlast stainless hangers with plated bolts-99% of the replacement I've had to do in Red Rock. Galvanic corrosion is the enemy, here-not Ed for putting up routes with appropriate hardware.

Not sure I've ever seen any evidence of that. Plenty of old, stainless SMC hangers in Red Rocks placed with button or thread head rawls which aren't plated. Same here in the Wasatch. In the immense pile of bolts from replacement efforts, I've never seen any sign of galvanic corrosion.

Some examples of bolts I've pulled, plated bolts, stainless hangers:





I think there's some evidence out there that mixing aluminum hangers with anything steel, especially in humid/wet climates, is a bad idear.

But, I don't think, especially in the dryer interior of the west in the U.S., that galvanic corrosion is a concern.

Got some data? Post up!

Brian in SLC wrote: I think there's some evidence out there that mixing aluminum hangers with anything steel, especially in humid/wet climates, is a bad idear. Got some data? Post up!

Learned about this from Index climbing. I might be incorrect, but I believe there were one or two fairly bad accidents due to mixing of metals.

From cascadeclimbers.com/forum/u…

"I took the liberty of loading two of those photos onto the CC photo gallery and posting them here so everyone doesn't have to download the whole file. If you want them removed let me know.

Is that, what is it called?, stress-corrosion cracking? that results from the use of two different alloys like a non-stainless bolt and a stainless hanger??

Edit: Galvanic Corrosion is the term for corrosion due to contact between two different types of metal. Stress Corrosion Cracking is due to chlorine ions from dissolved slats in sea water.

Edited by dberdinka (08/25/09 10:55 AM)
Edit Reason: I'm no metalurgist"

Yep, aluminum hangers.

Exfoliating corrosion or some such. Might not be galvanic, but, still, either way, bad.

Monty wrote:Anyone find a good, consistent dealer online for the SS Hilti's?

What type? Pretty much the only thing available in the US is the KB3 in SS. It's an awesome bolt but a stud so it may/maynot be a good choice.

Monty wrote:Anyone find a good, consistent dealer online for the SS Hilti's?

There's a Hilti dealer on Stapleton Drive South, I think between Holly and Monaco. I cash sale off of an old account from a company I no longer work for who have a killer multiplier discount. Can't share it though. They know what I'm doing and tolerate me.

ClimbBaja wrote:Dan G, If you have any logic to support your statement (other than "per Fixe's intructions"), then we would like to hear it. It is generally agreed (despite what the Fixe site reads) that the Triplex bolt is safer when placed with the sleeve flange flush against the rock and using a 10mm hanger. The safety reason is cited above by Perin and ABB. The only disadvantage is that subsequent removal is slightly more difficult.

I haven't used the Triplex bolts, but I'm surprised by this comment (and several others) that assumes that we average climbers know better than the manufacturers about how to use their gear. This is the case with the Triplex but also with harnesses, belay devices, and several other pieces of equipment.

Fixe designs and manufactures equipment for bolt anchors. They are considered the standard-setters for bolt technology, so why would we so flippantly question the way they say one should use their equipment? Admittedly, I found no specific instructions on the Fixe website on the "proper" use of the Triplex, but I also found no specific information published by a reputable organization (including the ASCA) that says the Triplex should be used in any way other than how it is designed. Sure, companies screw up sometimes, and it's important to give them that feedback and always treat anything on which our lives depend with some skepticism. That said, "per Fixe's instructions" - or any designer/manufacturer's, for that matter - should be the standard until reliable, replicable testing proves otherwise.

So along those lines, is there any documented case of a properly placed and maintained Triplex bolt failing?

Christopher Barlow wrote: I haven't used the Triplex bolts, but I'm surprised by this comment (and several others) that assumes that we average climbers know better than the manufacturers about how to use their gear. This is the case with the Triplex but also with harnesses, belay devices, and several other pieces of equipment. Fixe designs and manufactures equipment for bolt anchors. They are considered the standard-setters for bolt technology, so why would we so flippantly question the way they say one should use their equipment? Admittedly, I found no specific instructions on the Fixe website on the "proper" use of the Triplex, but I also found no specific information published by a reputable organization (including the ASCA) that says the Triplex should be used in any way other than how it is designed. Sure, companies screw up sometimes, and it's important to give them that feedback and always treat anything on which our lives depend with some skepticism. That said, "per Fixe's instructions" - or any designer/manufacturer's, for that matter - should be the standard until reliable, replicable testing proves otherwise. So along those lines, is there any documented case of a properly placed and maintained Triplex bolt failing?

ASCA has stated before that they DON'T put the flange through the hanger. I think greg Barnes has posted it before...

The Dread Pirate Killis wrote:. I, like, to, use, comm,a,s, t,oo, Burt/Dex/Dorsey. Can you live your life without being a walking excuse for a yeast infection on this site for, say, a day straight?

Nice Kills!!!

There are in fact many of us foreigners on MP who may not always use "proper" English. But hey, I consider myself a very safe climber using good judgement.

Great thread!!!! And great information provided by all.

Patrick Betts wrote: Learned about this from Index climbing. I might be incorrect, but I believe there were one or two fairly bad accidents due to mixing of metals. From cascadeclimbers.com/forum/u… "I took the liberty of loading two of those photos onto the CC photo gallery and posting them here so everyone doesn't have to download the whole file. If you want them removed let me know. Is that, what is it called?, stress-corrosion cracking? that results from the use of two different alloys like a non-stainless bolt and a stainless hanger?? Edit: Galvanic Corrosion is the term for corrosion due to contact between two different types of metal. Stress Corrosion Cracking is due to chlorine ions from dissolved slats in sea water. Edited by dberdinka (08/25/09 10:55 AM) Edit Reason: I'm no metalurgist"

That is not SCC, or Stress Corrosion Cracking, but rather exfoliate corrosion. Exfoliation corrosion often occurs in aluminum when it comes in contact with salt water or some other type of chloride. However, it may be possible for exfoliation corrosion to occur under different parameters, I don't know. Exfoliation corrosion is extremely serious, I have broken a biner with my hand that was suffering from serious exfoliation corrosion.

Christopher Barlow wrote: I haven't used the Triplex bolts, but I'm surprised by this comment (and several others) that assumes that we average climbers know better than the manufacturers about how to use their gear. This is the case with the Triplex but also with harnesses, belay devices, and several other pieces of equipment. Fixe designs and manufactures equipment for bolt anchors. They are considered the standard-setters for bolt technology, so why would we so flippantly question the way they say one should use their equipment? Admittedly, I found no specific instructions on the Fixe website on the "proper" use of the Triplex, but I also found no specific information published by a reputable organization (including the ASCA) that says the Triplex should be used in any way other than how it is designed. Sure, companies screw up sometimes, and it's important to give them that feedback and always treat anything on which our lives depend with some skepticism. That said, "per Fixe's instructions" - or any designer/manufacturer's, for that matter - should be the standard until reliable, replicable testing proves otherwise. So along those lines, is there any documented case of a properly placed and maintained Triplex bolt failing?

Actually the Fixe you are referencing doesent manufacturer their bolts, or anything for that matter. Fixe Faders of Spain manufacturers Fixe gear. Fixe USA is owned and operated by Kevin Daniels. He buys gear from Fixe Faders in Spain and resells it in the USA under his own company name of Fixe USA.

But none the less, everyone's advice on this forum is correct. You should not place a hanger under the flange, if the nut gets loose, the bolt will pull.

Mia Tucholke wrote: Nice Kills!!! There are in fact many of us foreigners on MP who may not always use "proper" English. But hey, I consider myself a very safe climber using good judgement. Great thread!!!! And great information provided by all.

Oh... Is the OP a foreigner? Or just bad at simple English grammar? Ill go with the latter.

20 kN wrote: Actually the Fixe you are referencing doesent manufacturer their bolts, or anything for that matter. Fixe Faders of Spain manufacturers Fixe gear. Fixe USA is owned and operated by Kevin Daniels. He buys gear from Fixe Faders in Spain and resells it in the USA under his own company name of Fixe USA. But none the less, everyone's advice on this forum is correct. You should not place a hanger under the flange, if the nut gets loose, the bolt will pull.

And even Fixe of Spain has some of their hardware made elsewhere. Their famous hanger, for example, is made by Raveltik of the Czech Republic and it looks like some of their bolts are as well.

johnL wrote:I don't see an advantage over the power bolt now. Ease of removal was all they had, to keep them safe we now have to sacrifice that feature? Pass the Powers please. Hell, I'd rather use glue ins inland on hard rock than, be kept up st night wondering if the bolts I placed were going to catch a fal.

I believe they're still easier the remove than a 5-piece. The expansion cone is not a friction fit like the Powers and since it's one piece it's a LOT easier to get the cone and shaft out of the hole. Getting the sleeve out is a bit harder than when the hanger is on it but not too bad. Vice grips should do the trick I'd think.

I've only pulled 5-Pieces and they're a PITA.

mattm wrote: I believe they're still easier the remove than a 5-piece. The expansion cone is not a friction fit like the Powers and since it's one piece it's a LOT easier to get the cone and shaft out of the hole. Getting the sleeve out is a bit harder than when the hanger is on it but not too bad. Vice grips should do the trick I'd think. I've only pulled 5-Pieces and they're a PITA.

That is true, the 5-piece bolts are not very easy to remove compared to the Triplex bolts. It is easy to get the machine bolt out of a Power-Bolt, but removing the cone and the expansion sleeve is not easy, especially in hard rock where you have the hammer the bolt in. But the Power-Bolts are pretty much the strongest expansion bolt on the market and they are far more secure and safer than the Triplex bolts.

Since there are some knowledgable folks posting right now, I have a question regarding galvanic corrosion.

When people talk about the dangers of mixing metals, say SS and zinc plated steel, I would assume that water running down the cliff with some natural salts in it gets between the hanger and the bolt and acts as the electrolyte, yes? (Let us assume that we are not in a marine environment with salty, moist air for the moment). Thus I would assume that simply hanging zinc plated chain from an all SS bolt and anchor setup would not be a problem because the connection point is sufficiently exposed to air such that any water (i.e. the required electrolyte) quickly evaporates and poses only a minor issue. Is my understanding correct?
Thanks guys.

J. Albers wrote:Since there are some knowledgable folks posting right now, I have a question regarding galvanic corrosion. When people talk about the dangers of mixing metals, say SS and zinc plated steel, I would assume that water running down the cliff with some natural salts in it gets between the hanger and the bolt and acts as the electrolyte, yes? (Let us assume that we are not in a marine environment with salty, moist air for the moment). Thus I would assume that simply hanging zinc plated chain from an all SS bolt and anchor setup would not be a problem because the connection point is sufficiently exposed to air such that any water (i.e. the required electrolyte) quickly evaporates and poses only a minor issue. Is my understanding correct? Thanks guys.

Disclaimer: I'm not a metallurgist.

I can tell you that I've seen galvanic reactions occur in an enclosure that not only prevented running/falling water from contacting the bimetallic contact area, but also had heaters to prevent condensation. Water wicks into very small spaces that take a long time to dry out. Even something as small as the contact between a bolt hanger and a quick-link will give enough time to have some reaction take place before it dries out after a rainfall.

I guess my question is "Why?" Why even give galvanic reactions a chance? You're spending the $$$ to make an all S/S setup to the anchor chains. Why not spend the extra few dollars to buy S/S quicklinks and chains?

I'm seriously curious about this myself.