Royal Flush Discussion

There you go Joe, I used that edit button to delete every thing I said. Sorry for sticking up for the wilderness, Sorry for using other places as an example. Your right Yvon Chouinard is a bad boy for having a vision like that.

Peace, Love, & Powder,
Taylor

Joe,
I have never planned on chopping this or any route. This dialog, research, conversation and other future actions are the "work" I spoke of.
Tim left me a message last night! We're set to climb it together tomorrow!
I'll provide Tim a list of concerned climbers in Summit. Give a call and we can talk.

TO: Joe, Tim, Peter, Rowdy, Sarah, Brian, Rob and anyone concerned,

We do want many of the bolts removed though we would love to see the installers remove them. Please?

As humans, we all have an impact on the earth and each other. Through education and sometimes technology we can learn to lessen our impact. Like choosing to live simply so that others can simply live. Trying to say, "this is enough for me"

And that's just it...This is not about me, or you, or even Tim and Peter. It's much bigger than that.
I't's about preserving options, resources, and experiences for today and tomorrow's climbers, future generations, our kids, their kids, etc.

I'ts not about conquering or saying "I'm the first" or "I/they want more." I't's about meeting what's there, and saying "this is what I've encountered, and it's enough for me"

It's about what can we learn from climbing, from our past. Being able to cry and be sick about us all being part of the cause of the oil that gushed into the gulf and say "how can we change?" How can we grow and prevent this damage to nature and the people effected?

Joe. You know the vast majority of the worlds climbing community disapproves of drilling bolts next to contemporary clean protection placements. It's why the shelves are stocked with far more cams and nuts than pitons and hammers. We've evolved, we've learned, we share it.

I'm glad there has been dialog and discussion regarding this matter and most of it has occurred outside of this small forum. This has been my primary goal all along.

We will continue to talk and try to respect and meet each other on some middle ground.

I will not be responding further in this forum. At least for some time. Im more psyched to talk in person or on the phone, e mail or on the mountain.

I truly hope you sleep well.

Peace,
Teague Holmes

Climbed this route again on Saturday and had a blast with friends from France, one a guide

They called it pleasure climbing, which is something we don't understand here, Big smiles and they said why the big fuss about the bolts when there is a big F---ing highway with trucks right there. I thought that was funny.

Anyway, over 50 registers in the log now, and everyone of them happy and thankful.

It's amazing how many smiles this route has brought to folks that may have never experienced it. As the french said, pleasure climbing. In many of the register comments so many happy people and many people saying please don't chop this route, thanks for the bolts. People I have never heard of and coming from close regions to experience something different and quite enjoyable.

As the song goes, if it makes you happy it can't be so bad.

In closing , I am sorry I wasted time in this thread at all but it hit a personal nerve. I feel bad that I put anytime into it at all and apologize if I was too forward or opinionated, but thats what forums are for, I spoke from my heart and I stand where I stand,

Happy climbing and goodbye to this issue, the register says all and the happy climbers have spoken.

First off, I'd like to say that I have enjoyed this route a couple of times now and I hope that I can continue to climb it in it's present state for years to come. I don't think that it is "over-bolted", even though I have walked by bolts in several places along it's length. I have placed a few pieces of gear, more due to my desire to place gear. I don't think it is my place to dictate how anyone climbs a particular route. I do, however, respect everyones desire to climb in their own "style", but does that give them the right to tell me to climb in the same "style".
The pioneers of modern climbing used hemp ropes, leather mountaineering boots, pins and pitons, steel caribiners, and a rock hammer. Are we to all go back to that equipment just to keep our style righteous? I noticed in the above pictures that new school camming units were used. Not one picture showed a slung hardware store nut or a steel caribiner being used. I'm going to guess that there were new harnesses and sticky soled shoes employed by the photographer. I definitely respect those that climb without using the bolts placed on Royal Flush. Why they can't be happy with just that is beyond me. In my opinion, that displays egotistic behavior.
I'm going to close this with a quote from Yvon Chouinard, "The rules of the game must be constantly updated to keep up with the expanding technology. Otherwise we overkill the classic climbs and delude ourselves into thinking that we are better climbers than the pioneers."
To those that put this route up, I can't thank you enough. You have provided the climbing world with a great "pleasure route". You should stand proud with your accomplishments!

I climbed this route about a month ago and had a great time. Is it over-bolted, maybe, but is there plenty of rock for other people to have their own trad only adventures, definitely.

In my fifteen years of climbing, one common thread that comes through are debates and the passion of people's views. I can understand that this route may not have been everyone’s vision for the area. Maybe there shouldn't be anymore "everyman's" bolted routes in the area, but in my opinion it is far worse to try to undo the situation and remove the bolts.

Why can't the climbing community share their views and visions and have a meeting in the middle? I imagine it is a similar debate as to the reason the U.S. doesn't embrace the Via Ferrata like Europe does. When my wife and I went to Italy, she had an amazing experience climbing "routes" should could never have climbed by normal means, yet there remains many classic bolted and traditional climbs for those wanting specific challenges.

I hope that we can turn Royal Flush into a positive example of how to deal with a controversial subject whatever the outcome.

This is silly. I spend a lot of my time doing trad but sometimes I like to be fast and light on a sport climb just cruising up without worrying about gear etc. Colorado does not have many "big wall" like sport climbs so this is a treat.

The amount of rock out there is infinite for an adventure trad climber and this should not even be an issue.

Love the route, great beginner sport climber's multipitch route to work on transitions and rope management etc.

Cheers,
Dave

Thanks for putting this route up.

As for the discussion, this is a sport route, so stop complaining about the bolts. There are so much more purely trad routes for the same grade in Colorado. It's nice to have variety.