.

Your move BDL.

Hmmm... actually some of the people that did first ascents at the Roost are still climbing, and some would not like chain draws added to their routes.
What's next for Robber's Roost-gym lockers at the base to store one's gear(BYO Lock)long term. Heaven knows what a bitch it is to carry that pesky climbing rope up each time you want to work your project.
I understand that the climbing sport evolves, but in some circumstances I see it devolving a bit. Perhaps it is best to leave the not radically overhanging routes with just their simple bolt hangers, and we can all just use our sporty lil' quickdraws on them. We know the history of our biners. Some of the stuff that is hanging off those chains is just worn out crap. I can possibly understand the chains existing on the hardest to clean bolts on severely overhanging routes, but even that maybe should be kept to a minimum in a shared area.
I did notice that the hanging chains were mentioned in this weeks R-J "hike of the week" column featuring the hike to Robber's Roost.

I live in Vegas. I was at the roost THE day these folks were installing the majority of the draws.

The most fundamental principle of being a human and playing outside should always be "LEAVE NO TRACE". Thus helping create a sustainable world for our children etc...

As a lover of our blue world I can not think of an instance where this edict doesn't hold true.

Killis Howard wrote:THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT THERE CLIMBING QUITE WELL WITHOUT CHALK.

I Have not read most of the posts in regards to this thread. having said that this is all that i can add.

Many people posting to this thread do not seem to have actually talked directly to any representatives of the forest service.

as an individual not representing the climbing community i have now had several in person conversations with Shawnee who is in charge of special use permiting for the spring mountains national recreation and wilderness area, which is owned by the national forest service. since climbing, and guiding are under his jurisdiction of "special use" he is the person to talk to in regards to what is allowed climbing wise for mount charleston.

among many other topics i had mentioned to him that myself and several other members of the climbing community were planning on removing most of the unnecessary perma-draws up at the robbers roost, and then the ones that we were going to leave in place we were also planning to then install steel biners for safety reasons.

before we were able to remove the perma draws they were stolen.

Shawnee's response was that we should have left them up so that other user groups see that there is a strong climbers presence up at the roost.

the actual forest service wants them up there.

i do not think that we as a community need them all up there, some are nice in some situations.

shawnee also wants the climbing community to bolt more rock climbs up at charleston. lots more.

part of my plan, and justification of the removal of most of the draws is that it would lower the number of people that would be climbing there. many climbers who can not climb the routes at the roost have in the past gone there because there are fixed draws.

the other part of justifying removing the chains was to start putting up easier climbs for beginner rock climbers.

my self and chris forte bolted five beginner climbs at a crag further down the road. we called it the "starter crag" these routes were bolted specifically with the people who will be climbing on them in mind. the bolting on them is generous.

i would personally ask that the chains not be re-installed and instead people just put up more moderate rock climbs.

i have walked to very nearly every single un bolted cliff on the entire mountain and could supply to anyone info about cliffs.

the forest service wants more climbing. they are providing as we speak more parking for us and others.

i will also give people bolts and hangers if they want them, or at least get people in contact with deals to make bolting cheaper for them. i cant fully supply people but i could possibly help.

it is not a good idea to grid bolt. the roost generally consists of unique strait lines.

lastly not that anyone has probably discussed this but "project draws" are different from "fixed draws" project draws get removed once the person who owns them send the route they are working.

all of this is a grey area. we should take each situation case by case.

i do not in any way want this post to be viewed as being emotional. i do not want it to be incendiary. if anyone would like to personally get in touch with me my email is.

Andy Raether
rockclimbthis@gmail.com

i think as a community we can work together to find solutions to our problems.

also lastly this posting comes from someone who is not just a sport climber. i boulder(sometimes) have done lots of trad climbing and some mountains as well.

thank you.

"i will also give people bolts and hangers if they want them"

Thanks Andy, I'll take 500.

quoting: "Go up to one of those 14c's and chip out a few dozen incut jugs to make a 5.7 out of it and see how they like it when YOU disrespect the rock the same way they do." (only change i'd make is replace "rock" with 'first ascentionist')

i'm truly indifferent considering the outcome of this debate, it doesn't effect me.

HOWEVER, i'd never considered the point made by the above quote and it is a great point: very difficult to successfully refute... if this was debate class, i'd say that one won the exercise! LOL...

happy climbing!

jon