Rock climbing ethics from an origional Stone Master-Martin Veillon

@John Knight "Perhaps you'll find that reasonable people think additional protection may be necessary. Perhaps not. "

I doen't matter what "reasonable people" think about the safety of a route. Adding bolts to an established climb without the approval of the first ascent party is unacceptable.

Tough crowd, but really John Knight put it well. I understand your intentions with the post are to raise awareness and gain support in your quest to overthrow the retro-bolters and restore your routes to their original nature.

And even more so on a grander scheme, to speak as a "stone master" and remind climbers of correct, respectful ethics.

But as with many things on internet forums, your plea hits a variable crowd. True, many of us are shaking our heads, wondering why anyone would retrobolt a route. But ultimately I feel you need to keep your campaign local and get to the bottom of it in a more traditional manner.

Call me blind but I'm guessing 90% of MP users see this site as both:
1. A great place for free beta and
2. Entertainment

Edited for paragraphs (I couldn't do it without 'em):

To all parties concerned I have the following to say and then I'm expecting that the people responsible for that noted will not just stop but remove the added bolts to my 1st ascents. I'd like to also know how to attach my topos of Descanso Crag, Lawson Pk. and Stonewall Pk. so that everyone can see what's been established by both others and myself but I do not know how to do this yet.
I've received 2 e-mails and one phone call thus far about my concerns and find thus far that my concerns are indeed justified.

What has been going on since the 1st and 2nd edition of D. Kenney and C. Hubbard's guidebook to San Diego County is several people have come out to the 3 areas mentioned, in particular Descanso, and have added numerous bolts to my 1st ascents. I have always noted that if you feel my bolts to be unsafe or questionable, then remove them and replace them with newer and better ones but do not add any extra ones as I have gone to great lengths to provide my climbs with well thought out protection.

What our main intention was and still is, is to have a varaity of climbs to not only keep the ethics I've grown up with, but to also teach of the several climbing potentials that one may one day encounter-hangerless bolts, runnouts, the complete aray of clean protection possibilities rather than bolts. For example, recently added is at least 8 new bolts to my "Into the Eye of the Son" that starts at the origional most obivious way to start the climb by diagonaling from rigth to left accross a seam and crack which protects very well with a # 4 Rock and a .5 cam before ending into face climbing where I put in the 1st bolt and have been told that the person who put these bolts in is a 5.14 climber but for the life of me don't understand why they would need bolts epoxied in next to this seam/crack that's only approx. 5.6 - 5.7 climbing.

I've made one attempt last week to remove the 1st epoxied bolt but to no avail. The person who put these in along with all others added to my climbs needs to go back and remove them-but if not, no worries-I will!!!

Now per phone conversation with Ben May yesterday we discussed that I don't own the rock and neither does anyone else. But what we agreed on was that bolts next to areas that accept "clean" protection should never have bolts placed. And that the 1st ascent is to be respected and not violated without discussion with the 1st ascent party should someone disagree with the amount of protection provided. As also discussed, this crag is completely topropeable for those who feel they are not into risky climbs. I'm now 57 and obiviously lived thru the risks I've taken and don't expect others to do what they're not comfortable with. But as many of you probably have read the books and stories of the elders who made this great sport into what it is and meant to be, it's about being one with the mountains and rock and therefore discovering what's deep inside of you and bringing forth to your very being that which sometimes only a little risk can bring out.

Look at what's been acomplished by the greats like Layton Kor, John Bachar, Peter Croft, Ron Kauk, Jim Bridwell, John Long, Reinhold Messner, Chris Bonnington, Tony Yaniro, Rick Piggot, John Harlin, Jerry Gallwas, Royal Robbins, and so many countless other Stone Masters. The mountains brought out the best in them and helped make them the great people that they are. So for the life of me I don't understand why people think that San Diego crags are exempt from the ethics of not retrobolting other people's 1st ascents. I've never added nor removed other peoples bolts on their climbs as though we don't own the rock, we do own our 1st ascents as they are our works of art and deserve respect even if we don't find them to be beautifull.

Should we touch up the Mona Lisa to suit our eye, or the statue of David? You have to make love to the rock so to speak and not rape it. Hell I've even seen a guy rappeling down and placeing pro to put in an aid climb-how do you learn aid climbing like that? I've even put in one bolt on rappel several years ago to see if the new style felt right and after I did so and climbed the route I knew I would never do so again. Many of the climbs I put in I did with less and/or no bolts and then came back later and added others to make them safer for others but I did leave a few with runnouts as like the "Bachar-Yerin" in Yosemite-that's what makes the climb so special for those who can.

Do you think Ron Kauk would allow bolts added to "Tales of Power" and "Seperate Reality"? And one day when he's dead and gone I expect that if any fool puts in bolts on those 2 most excellent climbs that they will get removed. So yes my 1st ascents, my works of art, the trails I've blazed to get to the rock are special to me and many other Stone Masters. I free soloed "Into the Eye of the Son" once, roped soloed "The Vampire" and "North-East Face Route" on Half Dome.

I've free soloed approx. 1/4 of all of the 137 climbs I've put up at Descanso and roped soloed over 1/2 of them just for both practice and for the love of it when I was the climbing animal I once was. Oct. 1, 2010 I had to have a double by-pass surgery on my heart and am fully recovered as far as I'll ever be, but I'll never be that lizard I once was but still do one finger pullups, one arm pushups, and hike 5 miles most every morning at 5am before going to work. I'm retriming my trail system at Descanso and will be back on the rock by winter this year. And I will be removing all bolts added to my climbs at Descanso, Stonewall Pk. and Lawson Pk. again and again until I'm dead and gone and then my son and 4 grandsons will not allow my works of art to be degraded.

In closing, I have the utmost respect for everyone I meet and I do meet a lot of people as I am the Calif. Division of the State's Architect Inspector of Record Class 1 here at Helix H.S. in La Mesa, Ca. and my job is to inspect each and every aspect of construction of the new Performing Arts Complex currently in progress for Code compliance = I have the highest of ethics-is my job, it's what I do, it's who I am and my last name is Cajun which translates into "Those who keep watch."
Therefore since I give everyone respect even though we don't always see eye to eye on everything, I expect likewise please.
And always to remember is the 11th commandment that Jesus Christ gave us-"Love your neighbor as you love yourself." If we all just do that then there can be world peace at last-what a beautifull concept!!!

In summary:

1) A young man retro-ed this old man's route: mountainproject.com/v/into-…

A .5 cam and a small nut protect the equivalent area of 6 bolts. That is not the issue: the issue is the lack of open dialogue between the FA'ist and the retro-er...
2) This old man should have a nice chat with the young man who retro-ed his route

3) They should learn something from each other

4) The old man will either come to understand the convenience of the retro-ing -OR- the young man will become informed about why there is value in being scared and schlepping a heavier backpack full of trad gear

5) The debate will end (settled over a beer in the parking lot and not on the internet)

This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.

Dylan Weldin wrote:Edited for paragraphs (I couldn't do it without 'em): !

Thanks man, nice job. That op was unreadable for this cranky old man.

Will S wrote: Between the grammar/formatting, the self proclaimed status as an "original Stonemaster" when basically nobody has every heard of you, the cross posting into multiple forum categories and multiple websites, the silly example above where both are splitter cracks that can be sewn up from bottom to top with modern gear, and the sign off of borderline proseltyzing, I just can't take you seriously. Csproul was right on the money, as well as jarthur. Well, that doesn't reflect well on the CA DSAI then, when you can't manage basic formatting in this, or any of the other multitudinous forums where you've posted this same stuff. Sorry, but if you want to be read and taken as anything other than a ranting crank, basic formatting and clarity goes a long way. And If you're that exercised about it, go chop the bolts. Simple solution to a simple problem.

To put ennie emphosis on grammer or paregraphs is plain silly. The op's points were well made and quite clear. Not everywone is a "great" righter.

And Will, I'll see if anybody's heard of you.

I read the original post, no problem, because I care a lot more about climbing than critiquing someone's writing. It sounds like fair warning to me. No need for bolts when you have good gear.

Joe Huggins wrote: Thanks man, nice job. That op was unreadable for this cranky old man.

I am not sure the OP is better off with the paragraphs. Most of it is just lame spray.

by the looks of that picture there's a bolt about every 4-5 feet on a protectable crack, that does seem kinda shitty.

that photo is worth a jillion words. I agree with Dylan that the debate/discussion between two people is much better settled in person than in a forum, but the bigger issue of bolting cracks for convenience goes well beyond just the FA and retrobolter.

also, "i couldn't be bothered to read something without paragraph breaks, so it must be lame" is weak sauce.

I do not believe that you own the rock just because you've climbed it.

berl wrote:, "i couldn't be bothered to read something without paragraph breaks, so it must be lame" is weak sauce.

Nobody is saying that the argument is lame because we didn't want to read anything so poorly written. Making up a statement, and attributing it to others is lame.

Dylan Weldin wrote:Edited for paragraphs (I couldn't do it without 'em):

Dude! You just retro'd his rant... I believe the common ethic is for you to get your balls chopped.

L G wrote: Two different people, two different times. An FA is only a notation of the first recorded ascent; It's not a lifetime award of rights to the control of a line on a rock. I prefer the modernization, but others may enjoy schlepping 20 pounds of clanky metal stuff to the crag because they like tinkering with gear or reenacting history. Time to just get climbing, whichever way you prefer it.

Wow! Even with the picture, you're going to state this? Don't you see the hypocrisy in your statement? Martin DID "just get climbing how he preferred it" and then someone totally screwed that. I guess you're one of those "just don't clip it" people? Bummer.

This whole thread nicely illustrates just how shitty this particular internet forum has become, just how shitty the ethics of climbing have become, and just how necessary the bans on fixed protection outside of Boulder are!

Even the substantive attacks on the OP, few that there are, are unjustified.

Safety and convenience trumps all! Isn't that the motto of the TSA, as well?

Ben May wrote: You just had to go political on this, didn't you. You one of those occupy nuts?

No, sorry. It was a lame attempt at humor. Please forgive me.

@ LG, Well I'm old and fat, think I'll go out and chip some holds.

@ the rest of the retro bolters. If you need a bolt every four feet stay in the gym.

My Wife is doing a photoshoot with Dean tomorrow. I'm picking him up at Lynns house, I'll ask them if they know Martin Veillon and is he "an original Stone Master"... I agree with every thing Martin said as well as Crump, and I don't really care that Martin doesn't use paragraphs, it's the title of the OP that interests me most for some reason.

CJC wrote:sad this place is just another internet cesspool now...attacking the man instead of discussing the issues. I'm with you Martin good luck and thanks for holding the line. knew the sport would explode in popularity but never would have expected the lazy self-centered arrogance that this new generation of climbers would bring. bolting cracks and/or eliminating runouts on established climbs? or defending such? cowards.

I think the reaction is because the issue has been beaten worse than any dead horse. The OP's post adds nothing whatsoever to the discussion except to puff up his own ego.

"As Free As the Wind" by Martin Veillon

Like gypsies in the night, we dance with our shadows
cast from the campfire light.
Surefoot and free, we feel the heartbeat of our Mother Earth,
and wash our feet in the mornings dew on the grass.

We are at home throughout all of the mountains and valleys we roam,
all is so peacefull at twilight and dawn
that we can hear the whisper of the wind in our hair.

A golden eagle circles closely overhead as we speak with the coyotes,
a mountain lion and her two cubs watch from nearby,
as the forest sparrows eat from our outstretched and raised hands,
their tiny feet tickeling our dried palms,
whose backsides are beginning to show the wrinkles of times gone by.

I recall, as I watch my son bounding down the trail,
that I too once had more bounce in these tired knees of mine.
I remember bounding, like the mountain goat billie I use to be,
surefooted and strong on ankles that couldn't be broken
through all of the falls.

A time just before the grey hairs and wrinkles moved in,
a time when I could do anything I wanted,
and then did!

I can hardly wait to tell my grand-children
the stories of how brave I was, and still am,
and of how the only way to stay young like me
is to never stop liveing as free as the wind
that the eagle rides.

And now for my rebuttal comments:
csproul-I know about para. but was at work blasting this out while multi-tasking as always. My upcoming books will be correct as I will also employ an editor.

jarthur-in reference to your note 2-I mentiond the 5.14 climber adding bolts not because he was pissing himself, but because the need for bolts along the crack/seam being unnecessary.

wills-I've already removed bolts added once but should not have to continue doing so as I don't do this to other people's climbs out of respect.

muttonface-you don't yet possess the intellegence to understand what I've written-perhaps you one day will when you move out of your parents house and get out on your own like a man.

jeff ludwig-until you've climbed my test pieces, then you cannot know of how they compare-but I was not comparing my climbs to the "Bachar-Yerin" but was rather noting that such works of climbing art are not to be raped by the useless, worthless people who are just taking up space.

john knight-I've done all that you've noted but I didn't have time for the PS part of your comment.
I do much better when I'm not just blasting out something out from work during my busy day, other than that-thanks for your support.

david sahalie-the only application required is climbing certain routes of note-no bolt chopping needed, but when someone does this to your 1st ascents, what will you do? - or do you have any?

dylan weldin-thanks for taking the time to modify my statement to try to appease those who can't do nothing better than complain-those who no doubt still live with their parents and know everything.

dexter rutecki-just have your 14 year old sister read it to you at your bedtime.

roc-no, I do not own the rock-it says so in my statement or did you miss that? I am rather the artist of the 1st ascent and you appear to be just a spectator rather than an artist-is this true? - otherwise you should know the Stone Master guidelines.

lg-it is a lifetime acheivement that goes on and on whether you like it or not as once you're gone, you'll soon be forgotten no doubt.

To all others, thanks and to everyone let's remember "To LOVE your neighbor as you LOVE yourself."
This will bring about world peace - the concept we must all embrace, but as you can tell from my rebuttal to the negative ones-I too can dish it out as I certainly can take it!!!