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Not Your Typical Climber's Car

Jeff Chrisler · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 145

I'm not usually one to promote a Ford, but the Ford Escape Hybrid seems like a good bet for you. It has ample space, has been made since '04 making it a valid used car in your price range, has mostly solid reviews, and has the best gas mileage for a crossover vehicle at 34mpg. A 2009 used one is definitely in your price range.

Personally, I drive an '06 Honda Civic. I love the thing up until the winter when I have to put on snow tires to get where I want to go without my girlfriend wanting to kill herself as a passenger. The problem is the clearance is limited so any snow over a foot and a half means I still can't go anywhere even with the snow tires. At any rate, it has suited me very well with 38mpg and has gone 130k miles without any issues whatsoever. Granted, it does have limited space, but it still will fit three with gear and skis/boards inside a folded down back seat.

I think now is a tough time to buy a car. It's the transition to hybrids and electrics that will be a tough time like we're in right now. As much as I want a Subaru Forester or Ford Escape Hybrid, I am going to run this Civic into the ground before I buy anything else. By then, I hope my SUV hybrid options are more solid.

NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60

jmeizis, that is a good question. I have just done google searches and seen what pops up. Ebay, Yahoo Auto and Auto Trader have some good deals. I assume that there is an "enthusiasts" site out there that caters to the fanatical owners that I want to buy from. However, I have yet to find a focused site with a good selection. I will let you know if I do. I am just starting to look around, and will start my search in earnest in the next few weeks.

Louis Eubank · · Portland, ME · Joined Nov 2008 · Points: 181

Subaru Legacy L. It's the station wagon that came out just before the Outback edition. There's a little less power in the engine, but it just won't die. I bought mine in '08 with 100k for less than $5k and have put over 100k hard miles on it, taking it down roads it has no business being on. Still runs like a champ. Can't recommend it enough. Also, it gets significantly better gas mileage than most Subies, routinely 26-27 mpg, and have often hit 30+ mpg on the interstate.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
"Jonathan and NC, where do you guys look for some of these older cars. Volvo's look nice but I can't find anything. Is that the car broker thing Randy was talking about?"

I live out in Santa Barbara CA. Home of most yuppies, therefore there are tons of them up on craigslist. I do know that Volvo forums usually have several cars for sale on them at any given time.
Mr. Holmes · · Cascade West · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 75
MTN MIA · · Vail · Joined May 2006 · Points: 405

Ford Escape. Drives like a car, small yet with lots of room for everything. And 4x4.....

mark felber · · Wheat Ridge, CO · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 41
Jeff Chrisler wrote: Personally, I drive an '06 Honda Civic. I love the thing up until the winter when I have to put on snow tires to get where I want to go without my girlfriend wanting to kill herself as a passenger. The problem is the clearance is limited so any snow over a foot and a half means I still can't go anywhere even with the snow tires. At any rate, it has suited me very well with 38mpg and has gone 130k miles without any issues whatsoever. Granted, it does have limited space, but it still will fit three with gear and skis/boards inside a folded down back seat.
I've got an '06 Civic w/ manual tranny, these are my thoughts exactly. Great gas mileage (40-42 mpg if I behave myself), very dependable, but the lack of clearance is a definite issue in snow or off pavement. I run snow tires in winter and carry chains and a come-along, and I've banged up the undercarriage and exhaust system pretty badly on dirt roads. A Fit would give similar fuel economy and offer a lot more carrying capacity but would probably have the same clearance issues as the Civic, as would probably any modern FWD passenger car.
Phil Lauffen · · Innsbruck, AT · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 3,098

why sell what you got?

jmeizis · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 230

David I'm curious what the maintenance (schedule and cost) is on the TDI's. I really wish our country subsidized diesel instead of ethanol. Thanks a bunch midwest.

I looked at a Fit and the cargo setup is really nice, wish they'd use it in other cars. I haven't been able to find any out here that are in good enough shape for the price that's being asked (no I won't pay kbb for an excellent condition car when there are stains and the carpet is all worn out).

Clearance is not a problem to me. I'm pretty good offroad in a FWD. Rarely scrape.

Phil, the reason I'm getting rid of the car is because it needs too much money put into it to both be reliable and to not look like a crappy beater. It needs a new clutch and timing belt (original clutch though) and I would need to fix the tie rods that are all frozen up so the vehicle can be aligned. That already is over $1200. If I fix the body damage so it looks a little nice again would be several thousand. I'm just not willing to put the work or money into it when it's got over 200k on it. I figure it's only a matter of time before the engine has enough of these Colorado mountain passes and just pops.

Who's got some experience with hybrids on the highway? It sounds like they suck compared to the diesel. Any alternative views?

jmeizis · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 230

There aren't any hybrid owners who care to comment on the worth of their vehicles in this car search?

Coz Teplitz · · Watertown, MA · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 215
Jon H wrote: Another option I'm considering is the Hynudai Elantra Wagon. Available in 5 speed manual, well rated by consumer reports, better mileage than the Suby, and most importantly a 10yr, 100K mile warranty. Starting MSRP is only $15,995. Find an '11 still on the lot and you could probably sneak in right around $15K and get a brand new car with that same warranty.
I've got a 2010 Elantra Touring that I love. Doesn't share much with the Elantra except the engine - is sold as the "i30" in Europe. Lots of cargo space, and a surprising amount of rear seat room (way more than in a Matrix or a Forester). Can pack in 5 climbers with big packs for overnight trips without much trouble. I used mine a lot for paddling last year, and love how easy it is to get boats on/off the roof (as compared to my sister's Honda Element).

I went for the version above the base model - which felt a little too basic - and got lots of nice features that make for a very comfortable car. Engine can be a little underpowered when really heavily loaded, but that's fine with me - keeps me from getting speeding tickets. Mileage is about 33-34 mpg on the highway if I cruise at 70; around town or with boats on the roof that drops to about 27-28. Build quality is just OK - you can hear the car creak a little if the body is torqued (like going over a speed bump diagonally) - but I would say the car feels better made than the Matrixes that I test-drove. I have done some off-pavement time in the car, and it feels like my old VW Golf - with some careful driving, you can get around pretty well.

And you got to love that warranty!

To my (admittedly biased) ear, sounds like this might be worth investigating if you don't mind buying a new car.
Coz Teplitz · · Watertown, MA · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 215
jmeizis wrote:There aren't any hybrid owners who care to comment on the worth of their vehicles in this car search?
I'd also be curious to hear if anyone has any experience with the new Prius V - the wagon version.
jmeizis · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 230

Coz, yeah I added the Elantra to the list it seems to fit the bill nicely. I can find some used ones in town with low miles and some remainder on the warranty as well which is a plus. Part of me is just curious about the diesels and hybrids because I know very little about them. Diesels are harder to come by and there's conflicting opinions about build quality of some of the newer ones as well as whether the benefits outweight the costs or not. Same for hybrids and the additional concern whether they'll be a hassle when it comes to extreme heat and extreme cold. That and I don't really know what to look for if I do look at them to tell if they're in good mechanical condition.

Jonathan Marek · · Spearfish, SD · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 2,497

A couple points about the cost of maintenace on TDIs...

1. It is true that a diesel oil change costs more than a normal gas oil change; however, the TDI manual recommends a change every 10k miles (we ususally go to 12k) compared to 3k for a normal vehicle. So, in the long-term it is still less expensive to do one diesel change than 3-4 regular changes.

2. Diesel vehicles last forever...our TDI is running great at well over 200,000 miles. Compare this to a gas vehicle and the more expensive maintenance is worth it.

3. If you are driving lots of miles, the savings on gas will easily cover any possible repairs. Also, if you find a good mechanic who knows VWs you will find it is not that much more expensive. The real price gouge happens when you try to take your diesel to a mechanic who doesn't know what he is doing with any car other than a ford/chevy.

4. To Ben Sachs...how much did you spend to get a steel skid plate (super jealous), the only problem I have with the golf is that too many pieces are made of plastic but the damn car lasts forever. The engine lasts 15 years longer than the drink-holder!

thomas ellis · · abq · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 2,615

J, I am selling my 2009 Honda fit (sport model) 37000 miles(not climbing miles, wifes rig) it is in excellent shape and has new tread. $15000. I am putting it on craigslist next Monday. I am hoping to sell so I can get that old Toyota wagon. Let me know if you're interested.

jmeizis · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 230

For you diesel owners out there, how did you know the vehicle you bought was in good condition? I'm finding a couple TDI's nearby and I want to check them out but I have no idea how to check if the engine is in good shape. Do you check out the same things you would on a ICU? I really like the idea of being able to cruise up the hill at 42 mpg with all my junk and friends inside and not have the engine screaming in pain. I also like the fact that the engines have some more longevity. It seems like given my driving characteristics that it would be a long term savings for me unless I were to purchase something that was in poor shape and didn't recognize it. Any diesel mechanics know what specific things to look at?

Thomas, thanks, I'm gonna look around this weekend and I'll keep you in mind.

ThreeDee · · Manhattan, KS · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 5

+1 on the Fit. Great gas mileage for road trips and quite roomy for the size.

Victor K · · Denver, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 170

I've got a Golf TDI, 2005 and it's been excellent. I love the hatchback body style, it holds a ton (not literally). My last fill up worked out to 45 mpg. I don't know what the high maintenance cost talk is all about. It's been nothing out of the ordinary. I couldn't be happier with it. The only real problem is the sensitivity of diesel fuel to very low temps. I've had one or two occasions where exceptional low temps gelled the fuel and I couldn't get it running.
Modern diesels have complex control systems, but all cars do now. On the other hand, there's no ignition system, the engines last for a long time, and it feels pretty strong off the line, due to excellent low end torque. Lastly, if gasoline supplies fail, you can make your own fuel out of vegetable oil (a stretch, but I did think about it when I chose to buy a diesel).

Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061
jmeizis wrote: I also like the fact that the engines have some more longevity.
IMO, this is a non-issue unless you are a traveling salesman or something and rack up 40k or more per year. Realistically, it isn't the engines that fail on cars these days, whether gas or diesel. It is other expensive repairs that eventually cause people to sell or junk it. Transmissions, A/C compressors, alternators, emissions equipment, water pumps, etc are almost always going to fail before you have any major engine issues.

Another thing to note for the TDI enthusiasts: As I understand it, although the TDI engines are all made in Germany, the GTI and Golf are actually assembled there, whereas the Jetta is assembled in Mexico. Passat is assembled in Tennesee. Something to think about, especially if you've experience the piss poor build quality of Jettas in the past.
jmeizis · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 230
johnL wrote:This thread reads like a pamphlet from a cult and they almost have you. Over 100k there is no argument that a small toyota or honda will be far cheaper and more reliable. The VW is easier to love and makes you somehow feel more awesome for driving it but it doesn't have the numbers.
What about under 100k? With the price range that's where I'm looking is lower mileage. Although with the price tag on something over 100k I could probably buy a couple of them at less expense. Are you saying it doesn't have the numbers as far as the cost of maintenance and diesel fuel outweighs that of japanese cars or doesn't have the numbers as far as performance.

My attraction to diesel is performance based on mpg. Right now I drive to Loveland to ski and that little engine screams to high hell in third if I get stuck behind someone or forget to anticipate a hill. It'd be nice to not have to be able to cruise up the hill maintaining speed and not have the engine all pissed off at me and I think in any small regular gasoline engine I will have that issue. I can accept it if the alternative is significantly more expensive but if there is a cheaper alternative (overall more so than up front) I'm willing to give it a try. So two questions I've derived from that are: do diesel's cruise up hills no problem loaded to the gills? Over the life of the car (for me probably 200k) is a diesel overall cheaper in terms of service, maintenance, and fuel cost? Even if it's close, within a few hundred dollars I'd consider it from a performance and feature perspective. Now if VW's are unreliable POS then that changes the whole equation and it sounds like there's a bit of a question mark on that.

Calculating my usual trip to Boulder and back it's $23.26 for something like the Hyundai Elantra and $20.03 for the Jetta. $3.23 isn't much but over a season of 50 trips it's over $150. Do diesel's cost $150 a year in maintenance?
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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