Dreams at Currahee's Brick Wall Retrobolted,

Some moron added a bolt at the crux on Dreams at Currahee. Does anyone know who did this, and would anyone with the proper tools and experience be willing to chop it? It really ruins an awesome route.

Ben F wrote:There are many retrobolted routes on the Brick Wall. I think this happened about 5 years ago (I may have it off by a year or so). The excuse was "we don't have anything to lead around here, so we bolted it." What they meant was that toproping was beneath them, the only way that they were going to lead anything 80 degrees or steeper was on bolts and they owned the rock. There were leadable routes at Currahee and that specific wall before they took it upon themselves to bring the Brick Wall "up to date." When called on this, the party claimed that they had obtained permission from the FAs. Who would have known that I work with one of the FAs? That's right 2 climbers from the SE in the same office out here in the Denver area. Small world. I asked. They weren't contacted. At least one of the retrobolters lied. Please chop. If you need a "how to," then feel free to PM me. We did a good job at the 1996 Sand Rock Clean-up, right? Finished ranting for now.

This bolt was placed in the last month. It was still intact a few weeks ago. I would be pretty surprised if the person who bolted the other routes put the chicken bolt in.

You can't retrobolt a retrobolt... wait... can you?

markrineer wrote:You can't retrobolt a retrobolt... wait... can you?

It had no bolts until a few weeks ago, but I guess you could retro a retro.

Bolts come and go.

John get some beta or help. The tools won't be that expensive.

Retrobolting is lame.

Chop the bolt and let it be known you have to tools to keep the route in it's original state.

There's plenty of sport climbing out there for those who want it.

Those who don't get the concept of trad climbing can stick to sport routes. Or in this case it seems easily top roped.

Chop it

Its funny that someone actually cares about Currahee. You get in a tissy about one more retro being placed at a location that tons of them already placed. This doesn't mean that I agree with the retro, its just that the place is already on the slippery slope. No going back with out some strong representation, which will never happen. That wall already has enough patch jobs with Power Flyer going in and out a few times. Leave the bolt, your posturing on the internet will not prevent another retro right next to the chop.

I don't remember anyone recruiting a group of people to remove the pine tree that blocked half the routes on that wall for almost a month last fall. I do remember putting in the 12 hours over a few days to rig ropes, saw the tree, and clear both the top and bottom of that cliff from debri. If you want to put time in there, clear and rebuild the trails and remove the graffiti. Wining about an extra bolt being placed at an area that gets pissed on by the locals on a daily basis, especially on the internet is purely ego driven.

TomCaldwell wrote:Its funny that someone actually cares about Currahee. You get in a tissy about one more retro being placed at a location that tons of them already placed. This doesn't mean that I agree with the retro, its just that the place is already on the slippery slope. No going back with out some strong representation, which will never happen. That wall already has enough patch jobs with Power Flyer going in and out a few times. Leave the bolt, your posturing on the internet will not prevent another retro right next to the chop. I don't remember anyone recruiting a group of people to remove the pine tree that blocked half the routes on that wall for almost a month last fall. I do remember putting in the 12 hours over a few days to rig ropes, saw the tree, and clear both the top and bottom of that cliff from debri. If you want to put time in there, clear and rebuild the trails and remove the graffiti. Wining about an extra bolt being placed at an area that gets pissed on by the locals on a daily basis, especially on the internet is purely ego driven.

On one hand, I sort of agree with you. It doesn't really make that much sense to remove one bolt on a cliff full of retros. But on the other hand, Dreams without the bolt is easily the best route at Currahee. Maybe I am naive, but the fact that it took this long for a single bolt to pop up on the climb means that chopping it will keep the route intact for at least a few years. How big can the subset of climbers who claim to be trad climbers but will retro a trad climb to make them more comfortable really be? It is not like the entire thing was bolted.

You are also right that it was stupid to post on the internet about. I was upset about the bolt and was not thinking clearly. Thanks for cleaning up the tree and debris. At a place like Currahee that is a thankless job.

Maybe I was a bit harsh, but I have heard this same rhetoric from Michael Crowder on several occasions about Currahee and especially the brick wall. He loves to bitch about how Power Flyer is actually a trad line and that it should be chopped. Although, the trad line of power flyer actually would squeeze on Pigs. Honestly though, less than 10% of the crowd showing up at Currahee is climbing on gear. The only reason that wall gets more retro attention is because climbing steep stuff is "cool" compared to slab.

The only way I would support a chop there is if the rock doesn't get damaged. Meaning, don't leave some bent up chopped stud hanging out of the wall. If it is a nut and hanger style stud, then by all means remove the hanger with a simple wrench. This will at least take the $20 hanger from the bolter. If you chop it with bolt cutters we all lose by adding yet another eye-sore to a good cliff already filled with them, but this eye-sore would be committed by a climber.

I am no expert on bolting or removing bolts, but I believe most of the retro's from the past were done with the Petzl long lifes? The ones that are very difficult to chop, because they have no exposed parts to clip with cutters. I tried to organize a trail day with Crowder a year or two ago, when there was the fire that took out most of the slab wall trail. He is old and unmotivated, unless it is ice. It is better to keep the curmudgeon's of the past in the past. Take the hanger if it is the type of bolt that only requires a wrench, otherwise I will bring one with my next time I am out there. Leave the cutters at home.

Unfortunately, this is the way of many small crags. They turn into Sand Rocks pretty quick. The crazy thing about a place like SR is one of the old FA'ers is doing a lot of the retro'ing and is even bolting next to gear placements.

"He is old and unmotivated, unless it is ice. It is better to keep the curmudgeon's of the past in the past. "

Be advised that it's not age or motivation thats keeping Michael away from climbing. Please don't broadcast your incorrect assumptions about him on the internet.

I love anonymous postings by locals, is that Brian? Yeah, isn't it because of his knee or shoulder? It was an opinion I made after the trail day plans sunk, because all he wanted to do was chop everything.

I just want to say that I am in no way advocating the scorched earth policy of chopping the brick wall. That would be idiotic and leave the rock as a complete mess. The bolts would be back in weeks. The sport climbs are fun, and the fact that they are all still there shows how the people who actually climb at Currahee feel about them. All I am talking about is a single bolt on a previously untouched and really fun traditional climb. No one needs to send anyone out. I should have slept on it before posting publicly. It is my problem, and I am taking the steps to deal with it.

Kinda surprised at what gets ya'll exercised down there. Granted, I haven't been to this little pile in about 10 years, but I've seen plenty of bolts come and go on the Brick Wall between about '92 and '99.

When there is a line a few feet around the corner to the left, probably the best line on the entire crag and the only moderately hard one, that has bolts an arm's length from a crack, all the way up the line...WTF? Where was all the trad ethic when that thing was going up?

Not that I really care either way, not my backyard anymore. Just seems a bit of selective outrage. BTW, a fat padlock through the offending bolt hangar with a note explaining that it will be chopped and why, is a quick way to get the point across if you don't have proper chopping and patch gear with you.

Ebola, the bolted line in the above picture doesn't climb the crack. You kind of hang off the arete for all the clipping stances. I imagine climbing the crack by itself on trad would be a few grades more difficult.

Ben, I don't know when the last time you were at Currahee, but the feeling I get is those days are gone. Nobody has control over what gets bolted at these small crags. We had issues with some guy bolting boulders in upstate SC. It is bad enough that most of the people climbing there are gym educated, but then you have articles in Climbing that try to teach people how to drill a bolt and carry emergency bolting kits. I really like the message on the bolt idea. Block the clip and leave a note. Then eventually remove the bolt without the clippers.

TomCaldwell wrote:but then you have articles in Climbing that try to teach people how to drill a bolt and carry emergency bolting kits.

I read that article recently. It reminded me of another article that I read in Outside magazine which decribled how to blood dope youself and what equipment to use. Sorry to be off topic!

TomCaldwell wrote:It is bad enough that most of the people climbing there are gym educated, but then you have articles in Climbing that try to teach people how to drill a bolt and carry emergency bolting kits.

This sounds like an argument to only teach abstinence to teenagers because it will stop them from having sex. I wonder if a magazine article that tries to teach people the right way to do something is really going to increase the amount of people bolting. I see a ton of bad bolts that I'm pretty sure were placed by people just "trying it out" and not even bothering trying to learn how to do it right.

Michael Schneiter wrote: This sounds like an argument to only teach abstinence to teenagers because it will stop them from having sex. I wonder if a magazine article that tries to teach people the right way to do something is really going to increase the amount of people bolting. I see a ton of bad bolts that I'm pretty sure were placed by people just "trying it out" and not even bothering trying to learn how to do it right.

That is why I believe it should be taught through mentorship. There are a lot of people out there who know how to bolt. Most of the ones in this area have been putting up routes for a while. I think learning from a person familiar with FA's in the local area is more important. They normally know more history about different areas and might be able to give you a feel about the future bolt placement or whether or not someone should even own the drill. The climbing article makes me more worried about places like Red Rocks, where someone might carry a bolt kit as part of their rack on established multi-pitch climbs. The main thing between sex and bolting, is that sex is instinctual for most, whereas hand drilling a bolt is not.

TomCaldwell wrote: That is why I believe it should be taught through mentorship. There are a lot of people out there who know how to bolt. Most of the ones in this area have been putting up routes for a while. I think learning from a person familiar with FA's in the local area is more important. They normally know more history about different areas and might be able to give you a feel about the future bolt placement or whether or not someone should even own the drill. The climbing article makes me more worried about places like Red Rocks, where someone might carry a bolt kit as part of their rack on established multi-pitch climbs. The main thing between sex and bolting, is that sex is instinctual for most, whereas hand drilling a bolt is not.

Totally agree on the importance of mentorship and local ethics to be learned. Absolutely. I'm just not sure an article is going to increase the number of bolters. Maybe it depends on where you are. My impression is there are some people who are going to go out and start bolting no matter what. Hence, hopefully an article will help them have a better understanding of the ins and outs of it first. But, I agree that at a place like Red Rocks it would be discouraging to see people starting to carry a bolt kit for emergencies. I kind of thought that the tech tip would have been better if it was part of the article on the Swell, like a small box within the piece. It would have helped illustrate the point that it's as a last case scenario. Even then I was surprised to see it because knowing Jeff fairly well, I doubt he would want to encourage extra bolting, especially when it means a way for people to chicken out and drill instead of thinking about how they can get out of a predicament.

TomCaldwell wrote: The main thing between sex and bolting, is that sex is instinctual for most, whereas hand drilling a bolt is not.

I may not totally agree here. I've seen a number of people who just say, "oh, so you drill a hole and then pound in a bolt. Sounds easy." And they pound away. Seems like kind of an instinctual thing for me and admittedly, I initially figured out a lot of bolting stuff out on my own because I didn't have any mentors around. I suspect that's how a lot of these guys get started.

I feel the bolt on dreams to a large extent removes the charm of leading it, and the route really will not be as fun for future generations if that bolt is allowed to stay. I enjoyed having to make those delicate moves right with my feet the level of some nuts and tiny cams. That route is the most classic and most obvious line on that wall and is a classic trad route for the georgia climber.