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Chains as TR anchors: a problem?

Original Post
Rmsyll · · Winston-Salem, NC · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 15

The attached photo:

chains for TR anchors
shows something new for the location, chains added to bolted rim anchors to allow rappel after cleaning Trad gear. The quick-links were each clipped with a carabiner to be used for top-rope belay. What I see is the rope being squeezed between the spines of the carabiners.

Chains extending over the rim are reportedly common at other areas, so I was wondering if this method of using them is common because it does not actually produce the drag it appears to me to cause.
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JulianB · · Florence, SC · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 15

Why not clip quickdraws to the chains and then clip the rope through the other ends of the draws? Might eliminate that pinching action.

Eric M. · · mashpee, ma · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 0

Seems to me like clipping each carabiner through both of the links would also fix the issue.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

If the rope pulls freely, then the use of the carabiners is fine. I usually just build an anchor off the bolts, then, when done climbing, thread the rope through the quicklinks to rap off.

But the use of chains is common.

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520
caughtinside wrote:Zero issues... except on the internet.
Got that right. Sheesh. That setup is about as ideal as it gets. The rope isn't even touching the rock at all. Toprope the shit out of that.
Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

Sheesh is right. BTW, flip the front biner and your "pinching" goes away. For what its worth, the bolts should be a bit farther apart.

Jim Reynolds · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 75

Yer gonna die!

I just had too...

Yarp · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 0

That set up looks about perfect to me. Gotta agree with caughtinside on this one.

Guy Kenny Jr · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2008 · Points: 10

Just use 1 locker.

Prod.

Petsfed 00 · · Snohomish, WA · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 989
Rmsyll wrote:What I see is the rope being squeezed between the spines of the carabiners.
I actually cannot imagine a simple two-point anchor that does not feature rope pinching unless you elect to equalize between the two of them. Even as is, when the whole thing comes under load, the chains themselves will shift just a bit so that the pinching is minimized. Of course, equalizing between two big burly bolts with big burly chains says, in no uncertain terms, that you expect to be toproping so hard that you'll exceed the strength ratings of both bolt and chain but somehow not break the carabiner involved.

I don't like using chains in my anchor, but otherwise, it does not get any better than this setup.
Robert Cort · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 800
Rmsyll wrote:What I see is the rope being squeezed between the spines of the carabiners.
It's only going to cause drag (pinching) when the rope is loaded, so a little more friction during a fall or while lowering. No worries. If you flip the left biner, and reversed the right one (i.e. gates facing each other and wide end down) it wouldn't pinch like that at all.
Johny Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 35

Not enough locking biners. Next time use at least four or it's considered dangerous.

But seriously,

you might want to cammo those chains a little, Killis is lurking.

Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,280
Mike Lane wrote:Sheesh is right. BTW, flip the front biner and your "pinching" goes away. For what its worth, the bolts should be a bit farther apart.
Exactly. My thoughts on the flipped 'biner and space the bolts about 6 inches further apart and it's sweet to go.
Rmsyll · · Winston-Salem, NC · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 15

'JulianB' said "Why not clip quickdraws to the chains...."
Photo of that shows the same situation, simply a bit lower.

'Eric M.' said "Seems to me like clipping each carabiner through both of the links would also fix the issue."
Those quick-links would stack the carabiners, with the upper one taking the load and badly rubbing the lower one.

'Mike Lane' added "flip the front biner and your 'pinching' goes away."
I wondered if shape of the carabiners is part of the situation. The ones used, and most quick-draw carabiners, are angled on the ends, sliding the rope into the arc and causing the apparent squeeze. The more triangular ones, with the large end down, might be better, but not everyone has those.

'prod.' said "Just use 1 locker."
Well, yeah. But people are so set on "redundancy" at this location.

'caughtinside' said "Zero issues" with some agreements. Hope so, because this is a high-use route for mostly TR for beginners.

Thank you all.
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Crag Dweller · · New York, NY · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125

that set up is fine.

but, if you're really worried about it, simply use one locking carabiner placed through each of the quick links. that assumes, of course that the QLs are positioned such that you can clip one 'biner through both and load each bolt equally.

edit to add: i just noticed that someone had already suggested that idea. if people are set on 'redundancy', educate them.

but, again, there's nothing wrong with that set up in the first place. actually, if you paid close attention to every two-bolt anchor set up, you'd notice that the 'pinching' you mention is pretty common.

Sir Wanksalot · · County Jail · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 10

Your in more danger sitting on your couch than top roping on that anchor. Maybe it will kink your rope a bit. Move the biners around til the rope runs smooth. No need to "oppose" lockers.

You could always just run the rope through the Quick Links and top rope right off the chains!(insert sarcasm) That's what they do in CCC and BoCan.

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Mike Lane wrote:Sheesh is right. BTW, flip the front biner and your "pinching" goes away. For what its worth, the bolts should be a bit farther apart.
The bolt spacing is probably fine. Those look like they're probably about 6 inches apart and there is one powerbolt (5-piece) and one wedge anchor. Both the powerbolt and the wedge anchor have a minimum spacing of 2 x the length of the bolt to achieve full strength and they are most likely 2.25" to 3" in length.
ian watson · · Sandia park, NM · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 235
Jim Reynolds wrote:Yer gonna die! I just had too...
good call
Guy Kenny Jr · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2008 · Points: 10
Rmsyll wrote:'prod.' said "Just use 1 locker." Well, yeah. But people are so set on "redundancy" at this location.
Don't worry about what "people" are doing. Worry about yourself. 1 locker or 2 opposed regular biners is pretty common.

Prod.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

its a TR anchor on 2 bolts .... jeez ;)

lets not have massive amounts of posts on TR anchor analysis on bolts shall we =P

Rmsyll · · Winston-Salem, NC · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 15

'bearbreeder' commanded 'lets not have massive amounts of posts on TR anchor analysis on bolts"

If the subject does not interest you, it is appropriate for you to stay out of it.
.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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