Nomics Or Fusions?

Nomics

Nomics

another for Nomics!

I've used a good variety of tools from black diamond to petzl to cassin and so on...

Petzl is the favorite if your do ice and mixed. there are some better ice tools out there, but for mixed Nomics take the cake big time. I have a friend who mounted a third "handle" above the second and that created an even more versatile tool. The grip also protects your hand more on the petzl than the cobra for when you are swinging into ice.

The fusion is crap for swinging into ice imo (maybe i'm not used to it enough). Petzl is still a good tool for ice, and excellent for mixed as well. I've known many a black diamond rep who like nomics over any black diamond tool.

As far as pick strength on the nomics go... I've torqued those things in various cracks like there's no tomorrow and haven't hand one break. I've seen em bend a little bit (only once, but it happened) but you can bend them back.

In short, if you can afford the nomic, do it

nomics hands down. there is a reason the tool has gone reletively unchanged for like a decade! the fusions bounce in ice i found. felt like i had to completely change my swing finish. nomics are gold in ice and a great mixed tool as well!

Huge fan of the Nomic. Petzl engineering and productions skills recently? Not so much.

There has been a limited production hammer available for the Nomic since the winter of 2008/09. Most find it a better answer than either of the newer Petzl offerings. Pommels? Not a good idea to add the new pommels to older tools as you will eventually wreck the interface on the shaft on the older tool. You can do it..bad idea.

Petzl hasn't been able to keep the pommels working and durable on the last two generations of Nomics or the new Ergo. There is zero chance of having the new pommels being reliable on the old tools.

A quick search on Cold Thistle will give you more details on both subjects.

Dane,

What are the chances of getting some of those pics for the newest generation Cobra's you have on one of your sites?

Dane wrote:Huge fan of the Nomic. Petzl engineering and productions skills recently? Not so much. There has been a limited production hammer available for the Nomic since the winter of 2008/09.

Hi Dane,

Do you still have the CT adze for sale nowadays?

Dane, any plans on more CT Nomic hammers or do we need to wait until next Fall?

Thanks

No more adze Bang, sorry. I'll have a batch of hammers finished and available again shortly.

i want in on some nomic hammers.

Dane if there is something I should do to get on "the list" for the CT Nomic hammers let me know! Thanks! :-)

not much love for the fusions. dang. I just bought a pair. Plan on throwing some lasers on em for ice and put the stockers back on for hopefully some First ascent mixed routes. Anyway, I understand how angles and grips and such can change the swing of a tool...what i dont understand is how it seems to make a good pick into a marginal pick. such as the laser picks. From what Ive gathered online, theyre a pretty steller water ice pick. I have climbed with current gen cobras for two years and love the pick (not sure what model pick is on em). but how could you throw that same pick onto a different shaft with slightly different angles, and it becomes a not so great tool. Once you learn to modify your swing, shouldnt it climb just the same? the only part contacting the ice is the pick and the bottom of the shaft temporarily.

Ive climbed ice for 5 years or so now, never too seriously but planned on it this year until Mr. Winter decided to skip over the northeast. Anyway...Its just something that has always raised my eyebrow. How could the shaft possibly make the "best" tool, a marginal one? Does it have more to do with personal preference? Or a swing that you have gotten dialed in over the years that people have difficulty modifying? Someone shine some light on the scientific reasoning. Cause I just dont think there really is a whole hell of a lot of difference between the nomic and the fusion, or any modern tool made of similar design, dimensions, and angles?

Exactly what makes the fusion mediocre at climbing water ice when a proper pick is installed? what makes the nomic better? Say each had the same exact pick fastened, then what? Would there be much of a difference? Or is the pick on the nomic the game changer?

I think there are half a dozen factors that make people prefer one over another. In the end it is a tool hitting the ice and how the pick, shaft, balance, head weight, handle angles, and swing dynamic come together at that point of contact and into the ice is what will dictate its performance.

I personally think that Petzl nailed it when they built the nomic, but that means they got the pick angle(s) matched with the rest of the tool into a device that works with a very natural swing.

You can learn to make anything work for you. People climbed a lot of hard ice with straight shafted tools for many years. There are just a lot of people who prefer the nomic over other tools (and some who prefer other tools over the nomic).

PT

cms829 wrote:...but how could you throw that same pick onto a different shaft with slightly different angles, and it becomes a not so great tool.

I think you partially answered your own question - it is all about the angles, the weight, stiffness and the other little things that contribute to a 'nice' swings and sticks.

cms829 wrote:I have climbed with current gen cobras for two years and love the pick (not sure what model pick is on em).

The current generation of Cobras come with the Laser pick.

I have Fusions as well, I just put Laser picks on them for waterfall ice. I got a nice deal on them from a fellow PM'er and have no regrets.

cms829 wrote:I just dont think there really is a whole hell of a lot of difference between the nomic and the fusion, or any modern tool made of similar design, dimensions, and angles?

That is kind of like saying there is not much difference between a Ford F150 and a Chevy Silverado. To me? no difference. To a real truck guy? I'm sure that could rattle of a dozen reasons why one is better than the other in particular situations. I think it is the same with 'similar' ice tools.

Jeff Maurin wrote: I think you partially answered your own question - it is all about the angles, the weight, stiffness and the other little things that contribute to a 'nice' swings and sticks. The current generation of Cobras come with the Laser pick. I have Fusions as well, I just put Laser picks on them for waterfall ice. I got a nice deal on them from a fellow PM'er and have no regrets. That is kind of like saying there is not much difference between a Ford F150 and a Chevy Silverado. To me? no difference. To a real truck guy? I'm sure that could rattle of a dozen reasons why one is better than the other in particular situations. I think it is the same with 'similar' ice tools.

lol see...i can relate to that. because i own a dodge ram 3500 cummins. haha. anyway. i understand that everything has its differences. I guess it is the same as putting a specific tire on a dodge, and it drives like a dream, but on a ford it is a death wish, mostly because of the angles and geometry of the suspension. I guess what im saying is, there are a lot more variables in suspension then there can be on a ice tool shaft, I guess to me, it just seems like things are more overcomplicated then they maybe should be. like you said guys used to climb WI6 with straight shafted tools. To me there are only so many geometries you can change on an ice tools. to me, the pick makes up most of the difference.

Im just bringing up a discussion, trying to learn some more. Thanks guys!

Dane wrote:No more adze Bang, sorry. I'll have a batch of hammers finished and available again shortly.

Thanks Dane! I will love to get the CT Hammer as well for your next batch. Lolz, is the CT adze just like the unicorn, one and only one exists?

where can we sign up to get one of the nomic hammers? put me on the list.

cms829 wrote:not much love for the fusions.

the fusions are a good tool they just do better at mix and dry tooling than the Nomics IMHO.

cms829 wrote: First ascent mixed routes.

You fusions will be just fine for that.

The angle of the Green fusions and the Nomics are nearly identicle. For some reason BD had yet to dial in a good pick. I have used reacters, vipers, cobras and green fusions and every one of them has the same problem. It takes more effort to to the get the pick to stick well and then and real bitch to clean.

For some reason with Petzl tools 1-2 swings yields a solid stick with merly a wrist flick, and then the pick lift right out of the ice with realitive ease. Petzl picks just seem to do better on pure ice then BD picks in general. After a real long day of climing Im less tired when using my Nomics when compared to Fusions for ice.

Now for drytooling where I am setting the tool on to its placemet (vs swinging in to ice) I find that the fusion's handle is easer to grip for extented perionds on time. Fusion with Titan pick for mixed is a good way to go.

thats jeff. I think I may start getting some picks and trying to modify them to find something to allow the fusions to climb WI better, When I come into some spare cash, anyway.

my vipers with laser picks can be a fucking bitch to clean, like moving up and spending 20-30 seconds to physically rip them out of the ice, gripping the head and pulling kinda upward and back. I'm scared that I'll yank on it so hard it'll dislodge the tool I have in above but then that tool has the same problem. I'm thinking about upgrading to nomics but I can decide if I should keep the vipers, anyone care to comment on the merits of keeping a tool like the vipers? I want to have something I can take to alaska and (when I pony up the cash and time) patagonia. is the spike that important or should I just say fuckit and get rid of the orange tools?

I've only started ice climbing this year and I'm just getting into mixed. doing stuff up to M6 on my current tools, you think I should learn to climb mixed on vipers so when I buy nomics I'll crush or just start climbing with the more mixed oriented tools now?

slight thread drift but I think the point of nomics vs fusions has been discussed thoroughly.

thanks guys