Moore's Wall Guidebook Discussion

Ryan Williams wrote: Just because most climbing areas have awesome guidebooks and most climbers want/need them doesn't mean that this is the right way of doing things.

That's a perfectly valid opinion, which I respect. Anyone who feels that way can choose (as you have) to not buy the guidebook. On the other hand, the corollary opinion is equally valid: Just because some people like to muddle their way around Moore's without a guidebook doesn't mean that's the right way of doing things.

It comes down to how you define "adventure." For some, that includes getting to the crag, finding the route, climbing it, and then figuring out how to get down. For others (like myself), stuff like thrashing around trying to find the descent just takes time away from the actual adventure, which is the climbing. I'll never forget the first time I led Zoo View; the descent, on the other hand, was neither adventurous nor memorable.

JL

saxfiend wrote: ... I'll never forget the first time I led Zoo View; the descent, on the other hand, was neither adventurous nor memorable. JL...

and unless you are somewhat inept, it shouldn't have been. A little common sense plus any of the current guidebooks should have gotten you off of Zoo View (or most any other Moore's route) without any trouble.

Moore's Wall fuckin' rocks. Now I'm off to sleep so I can enjoy my Saturday of climbing at a place that is far less awesome.

csproul wrote:and unless you are somewhat inept, it shouldn't have been. A little common sense plus any of the current guidebooks should have gotten you off of Zoo View (or most any other Moore's route) without any trouble.

I think you kind of missed my point. I didn't say anything about having any trouble getting off Zoo View; my point is that any descent, even from a convenient (the horror!!) rap station like the one on the Sentinal Buttress, is just time taken away from what I came there for, which is climbing. The more involved and "adventurous" the descent is, the less climbing I get in that day.

Anyway, there's a certain irony in the timing of your post in light of the following comment from just a few days ago here on MP:

[name_withheld] wrote:Courtesy of [name_withheld] and myself, a rap anchor with solid cord and a couple of non-lockers has been added to a strong tree at the top of Zoo View. We looked around and couldn't find a rap anchor anywhere (not just a quick glance, we looked for a while). From marks in the dirt, it was obvious that quite a few parties had used just the tree to rap, so we thought we'd do everyone's ropes a favor and add cord and biners.

With a guidebook like the one Erica has in the works, this kind of screw-up could have been avoided.

JL

Steve86 wrote:The book will be published, and maybe more good than bad will come out of it. But as someone who cut their teeth at Moore's, called it my local crag for years and still say it's my favorite crag in the world, I feel it is my responsibility to challenge anything that goes on there that could change the nature of the place. I respect that.

I respect that, too, actually. I think I find this thread so interesting because it illuminates a much broader reality about climbing: the problem with progress. At the risk of oversimplification, there are two camps on the progression of climbing. The first are those who challenge norms and ethics and re-envision style because it opens up new possibilities. The other camp contains those who do their best to maintain the status quo of style and ethics and view progress as legitimate only when it occurs within those established parameters (I don't mean to use "status quo" at all deprecating - I just can't think of a more positive term with the same meaning right now). Ultimately, we need both. Without either, climbing will lose its energy and turn into golf. The reason why these discussions can devolve into bolting debates (as Ben S. warned) is because it's part of the same problem - progress.

It seems that Moore's is an interesting area to consider because it occupies a unique niche in the community. On one hand, it's this bold, scary place that truly does require someone to be totally on their game. On the other, it's a local crag where folks want to have a fun day cragging. This breeds the debate, I think. With a place like Summersville Lake, it's easy to come to a consensus about what kind of climbing area it should be. Equally so with a place like Laurel Knob. Moore's is neither.

The truth is, however, that we're discussing a guidebook, not a management plan. The thread began as a reflection on the reality that a new guidebook will be published. Personally, I didn't need a better guide when I climbed there (used all the resources others have mentioned, especially Tim Fisher). I found the things I wanted to climb. For me, it comes down to the fact that I don't see any reason NOT to publish a new guide. The arguments about adventure, increased visitation, etc (basically all the least common denominator defense) don't seem compelling to me. The reason Moore's Wall has changed/is changing/will change is because more people are climbing, and no one is volunteering to stop climbing, so the problem will only get worse.

For this reason, I'm often an advocate of more progressive actions to manage how people climb. I support guidebooks (when done responsibly), piece-for-piece anchor upgrades to bolts, and proactive management plans. This is not about trying to dumb-down climbing. I take a lot of pride in having honed my own traditional climbing skill set very well over the last 20 years. I also take pride in teaching others to climb with similar competence and independence. I support these progressive measures because they actually make climbing better experience for everyone, experts and noobs alike. In many ways, proactive management preserves adventure and the precious climbing resources because it makes the way climbers use the resource more static. People climb the classic routes, use well established descents, and hike where they're supposed to. All I can say is that in the places I've climbed, this approach does nothing to diminish the joy of the adventure the climbing offers, it just presents the opportunity equally to everyone over the next few decades.

Another thing Ryan mentioned in regard to the idea of guidebooks being the status quo seems to regard the issue of the oral tradition of Moore's. As a Southerner myself, I also respect this concern. In this vein, I hope Erica's book makes a strong effort to preserve this tradition through storytelling. There are examples of this in other guides (again, the Indian Creek and the Black Canyon guide) that have been done successfully. I think this would go a long way to preserving the aura of climbing at Moore's.

saxfiend wrote: I think you kind of missed my point. I didn't say anything about having any trouble getting off Zoo View; my point is that any descent, even from a convenient (the horror!!) rap station like the one on the Sentinal Buttress, is just time taken away from what I came there for, which is climbing. The more involved and "adventurous" the descent is, the less climbing I get in that day. Anyway, there's a certain irony in the timing of your post in light of the following comment from just a few days ago here on MP: With a guidebook like the one Erica has in the works, this kind of screw-up could have been avoided. JL

I got your point, and I agree. The climbing is the adventure for me too. I agree that I'd rather focus on the climbing than waste time figuring all the other crap out. My point was that the current info available if sufficient IMO to allow me to focus on the climbing and easily find climbs and descents. Getting off of Zoo View using the SB rap is prime example of this. If you cant find the rap anchors from the top of Zoo View using the current guidebooks and/or web info, you just might be inept. I'm not sure a new guidebook will cure incompetence. Sure there are some climbs and descents that are a little vague, but it's the exception rather than the rule, and getting off SB is definitely not one of those exceptions.

But as someone who cut their teeth at Moore's, called it my local crag for years and still say it's my favorite crag in the world, I feel it is my responsibility to challenge anything that goes on there that could change the nature of the place. Ryan - I completely respect that and definitely understand where your coming from.

Steve 86 - Stubborn is a great word for Moore's. I agree with you that things may fluctuate a bit, but that eventually they will work themselves out.

Chris Barlow - I think you nailed it here - It seems that Moore's is an interesting area to consider because it occupies a unique niche in the community. On one hand, it's this bold, scary place that truly does require someone to be totally on their game. On the other, it's a local crag where folks want to have a fun day cragging. This breeds the debate, I think. With a place like Summersville Lake, it's easy to come to a consensus about what kind of climbing area it should be. Equally so with a place like Laurel Knob. Moore's is neither.

As far as descent options go, yes the main rap lanes are obvious to figure out with a guide and half a brain. But there are a few others that remain a little vague (ie Southern Exposure/Dolphin Head/Blueballs for instance). These are decent climbs that are'nt even mentioned in topos in the Select guide, and if you don't already have one, its pretty difficult to get your hands on a Kelley guide these days. I'm not saying that its difficult to find out that type of information on the internet/talking to others/etc, but I think a more complete resource for this type of information would be helpful to the climbing community as a whole.

Well said Killis. But please don't confuse southerners with easterners. Do I need to post links to the Rumney or RRG discussions? ;)

How the hell did I close this one out? That's it?

I have enjoyed reading this thread. Lots of thoughtful discussion.

Ben I don't get your comments about me hating to share. In fact I took you to 2 of these "not on the map" places for your first time. Encouraged you to finish open projects etc. Should these places be on the web? Of course not when one is not legit in the first place. And the Hole? How is that 5 car parking on private property going to work out with an internet "miniguide"?
Making yor point by mis-characterizing someone else is not how to stay on good terms with that person.

I share plenty with a good number of people. I do hate to share a new area with an individual and then have that person show no cosideration for established pratices. That is not directed at anyone specifically. But this happens alot. Climbers are selfish, especially me. Moores ain't a new area. If someone gets me started talking about Moore's I usually will spray them down until they can't take it any more.

On the other hand, providing the gym climber with enough information for them to think they are ready for outside when they probably are not, is exactly what I do not want to encourage. Moore's is a good place to develope gear route skills, but so many climbers just don't seem to have the aptitude for it. That is a problem. They want to make Moore's like the gym or like crag XYZ. I am not against a new guide in principle. I would not like to see a guide done with the primary intention of helping the local gym climber or the traveling sport climber be more comfortable at Moore's.

Scott Gilliam was working on a decent route info sheet for the Parking lot Kiosk. I don't think that is unreasonable. It is past due.

I have spent a fair amount of time helping the previous guidebook authors with their Moores Projects. John Harlin III, TK, Yon and Harrison, and Bryan Payst who has probably shared that info with Erica. I have tried to understate my own info at times to keep it from being about me. That is why a lot of my routes are poorly documented. Self promotion is something I think can be overdone in climbing.

When Erica contacted me about the guide I did not encourage her. I haven't met her.

I agree that the boulding guide will create much more traffic than the route guide.

Tim Fisher

As the author of the comment (poorly timed it seems) that JL quoted there, I can say that I don't wish there had been a colorful guide to help us get down. We looked forever and didn't find this "obvious" rap station. However, we got down without incident and left some cord and bail biners behind. Sure, the cord might be chopped by now, but we had an interesting experience during our first visit. That's worth a few bucks.

Joe Virtanen wrote:As the author of the comment (poorly timed it seems) that JL quoted there,

I want to publicly apologize to Joe for seeming to call him out, which was not my intent at all. I didn’t think anyone would go to the trouble of looking this up to see who wrote the comment, and I definitely wasn’t trying to disparage what Joe and his partner did, which was completely understandable under the circumstances.

My only reason for posting this the way I did was to refute someone else’s assertion that all it takes is some common sense to find your way around Moore’s, which I think is inaccurate. People say they don’t want climbers adding new rap stations, but they make such incidents inevitable by keeping things vague.

I found myself in similar circumstances as Joe's on my first visit to Moore's when we did Washboard, which has a pretty unhelpful route description in the current guidebook. We didn't know anything about continuing this route to the top and walking to the SB rap station, and the alleged "fourth-class descent" turned out to be what we considered a dangerous free solo downclimb. If we hadn't happened upon a slung chock and bail biner to rap off of, we'd have done just what Joe and his partner did and created a new rap station ourselves.

So, my point was not to cause embarassment to Joe, but to support the idea of a guidebook that will help people find existing descents and eliminate any such improvised rap stations in the future. Sorry Joe.

JL

Thanks for the apology JL, dont worry about it all too much.

I suppose my comment does highlight how it's very easy to get lost around moore's and even think in error that you're doing the general population a favor when trying to make things just a little more convenient. If I had a clear understanding of the ethic before fumbling around at moores, I might have avoided the (maybe deserved) embarrassment. In situations like that, a guidebook like Erica's might be of benefit.

I can understand not wanting a new book really I can . But I don't think it will be as much of an increase as poeple think .I live in Lychburg Va. and have been climnig since 92 . I have found less than 3 people who climb trad and those were for a season . Sport and bouldering it would be impossible to climb with all of those individuals . I have recently decided to climb solo/lead on trad routes I have been doing it at Seneca with relative success . I am sick and tired of people who get scared just cleaning gear and bad belayers I nearly died 4 years ago at Buthers Branch in the New due to a bad belayer. I climb on weekdays not weekends so there are no locals to ask about anything ,and useually when they are it depends on the inidividuals personality as to if they will even speak to you much . In my experience beta or no beta you want it bad enough youl climb it,if not you will never climb it ! People will weed thier selves out over time . Only those who refuse to give up will be sharing the cragg with you guys ,gumbies will have a bad experience and probbly not return. Please, please do not take offense ,seriously , I have been to Moores 4 times since I have been climbing . It is a great cragg , however other climbers I meet there would barely make eye contact or speak . Also if you are not local it's a very gas and time consuming place to get to . I like and have alot of respect for Nc climbers they are better quality climbers then I useually have oportunity to climb with ,wish I could change that, mayby in time? But I think moores will protect itself . Besides I know less then 6 people who (actively) climb trad , all the rest just own gear and talk about climbing. I think you guys are safe well at least from Va climbers?? Besides we should always respect the local standards of the cragg ,it's part of the experience.

Oh man this thing has started up again, sweet...

You may be right , I might be too optimistic ? I think it'l take a while to really see what the outcome will be mayby several months who knows ? But one thing I definatly agree with is keeping the standard to what it has been . Don't hesitate jump someones case for being noisey ,bringing large groups and leaving trash behind ect. Especially large groups! Personally I would love to go there more than I have but I just can't shellout that much in gas and still get by . But till then I hope for the best and ecourage anybody I hear of going there to be respectful and impact consous if they go to Moores.

Great discussions on the true need of a new guide for an amazing crag! What about a reissue of the 3rd Ed. Of the Kelley guide? That way the adventure would still exist & it would be comprehensive. Maybe with the author's permission a side author could update pertinent approach/descent beta. Having a permanent pit toilet, a water spiget that works when unlocked, and obvious trails, all seems pretty user friendly already IMHO. I don't think photos with routes traced over or a photo overview is really necessary as the crag isn't nearly as spread out like the NRG or RRG.

I do wish there was more access info to the variety of crags in the high country. Thank god for grimm's guide, but that being said, adventure more, but use caution.

I also wish I had a photo of my mug the first time I rapped off golden earring! That thing is bomber! Makes you think, which I like.

Moore's Wall is a great crag. The adventure there is as much about the steep nature of the routes and somewhat tricky gear placements (while pumping out!) as it is about finding the anchors to get back down with. I guess I don't have a strong opinion regarding the guide, but I will say that the adventure there should not change. I vote to add no new anchors and leave the cliff-line the way it is. I think it is up to Erica to portray the cliff as the serious climbing destination it is, to keep those who are not ready, away. I think she has a good idea of the nature of the area and think she will do a good job of that.

Adam - thanks for the vote of confidence. I think you summed up my intentions pretty well.

Pierre - The Kelley 3rd edition was and is a fantastic resource, one that I have relied upon a lot for both personal use as well as research for the new guide. As far as Moore's goes, the new guide will have about the same amount of routes listed as the Kelley guide, but with more information regarding starts of routes and descent beta. I know this thread in particular is only about Moore's, but FYI - other sections (especially Crowders), will include routes that haven't been documented in any guide yet. There has been a lot of rebolting and trail maintenance at Pilot since Jeff's PDF guide has been published, and the Stone section will have updates as well as more detailed approach info for the North Face. Each area included has been included for a reason, and due to their geographical proximity, they all make sense to include in the same guide. Each area is completely different from the other, but I know plenty of people (myself included) that climb regularly at all 4 areas, depending on the season.

One thing that I think will make this guidebook in particular unique is the inclusion of so many historical and anecdotal stories, quotes, and essays. The Carolina climbing culture is a very colorful one, and one of my main objectives was to preserve that. Old-timers will be able to flip through it and remember the "old school days," and newcomers will be well-versed in the who, what, when, where, and how's that got their favorite crags where they are today. Just my two cents FWIW...which might not be much. ;) Merry Christmas everyone!

In 2010 my wife and I went to Laos with no guidebook and no language skills. We had a great time climbing and stayed safe as well. Not only that but we actually learned quite a lot about the local ethics and history.

If I can do that, I don't see why a Virginian or North Carolinian can't get in their Subaru and drive a few hours to Moore's Wall with no more than the information that is currently available.