Skinny ropes and Red Rocks multi-pitch

Tom Fralich wrote:Since no one has addressed it: The difficulty of pulling the skinny rope versus the fat rope, or the likelihood of one or the other getting snagged as it falls, is not the primary issue. If you set things up to pull the fat rope, then the knot is on that side of the anchor (the fat rope side). As you rappel, the device grips more on the fat rope and you can actually pull the knot down as you rappel, causing the ends to become uneven. This can lead to rappelling off the end of the skinny rope, which equals disaster. I climb pretty often on a single 9mm lead line and my wife backpacks a 6mm cord for rappels. On occasion, I've rappelled with the knot on the fat side, knowing that the above can occur. My wife has seen the knot move as much as 30 ft while I rappelled the pitch.

I did cover this in my 3rd post. Its called "creep". The rope slowly creeps through the anchor. This is why you always let the fat person in the group rap first while still having the rope attached to the anchor to evaluate the creep.

andrewc, the rope would have gotten caught in the bush whether it was fat or skinny. I thought your story had something to do with pulling ropes of different diameters which is why I mentioned the pulley system.

The issue I seem to run into again and again are folks with just enough experience to think they know what they are talking about…and yet showing fear towards double ropes. Fear leads to more fear amongst the naive, kind of a vicious circle. These fears are neither rational nor predicated by experience or fact, just ignorance.

Double ropes, typically from 8.0 to 8.5, including my favorites over the years, Mammut Phoenix at 8.0, Beal Ice Line at 8.1, Edelweiss Oxygen at 8.3 and Edelweiss Sharps at 8.5, actually offer up a safer option then climbing on a single rope. In my closet I currently have a 70m 9.6 single, a set of doubles (8.3) and a set of twins (7.7). I almost exclusively use the twins on waterfall ice routes and won’t get into that here. If I can climb and descend a route with a single 70m rope, I will do it. More for hauling to the base and simplicity than any other reason. I also don’t like pulling a knot down a route if I don’t have to. And as before mentioned, I can climb and descend a lot of routes at Red Rock with a 70m rope.

When a route does call for long rappels…..to carry a tag ling and a lead line is a bit ridiculous versus using doubles with the exception that it is cheaper for those who don’t climb full time to just own one rope and maybe combine same lead rope with a partner's lead rope for longer routes, or buy a much cheaper tag line. Doubles in many instances cost the same per rope as singles. So unless you climb full time, to have so many ropes in your closet can be a financial burden or just plain unnecessary.

However, the advantages of doubles are significant. The OP’s wife refuses to climb on what she considers to be “skinny” ropes. What she does not realize nor has her husband apparently, is that the biggest risk to the both of them climbing a multi pitch route is not the rope failing, but rather the gear failing due to an inappropriate amount of force on the gear placements as a result of a sub par dynamic system. Doubles, if properly used, are meant to absorb more energy regarding a fall, particularly regarding a catastrophic fall involving a high factor load. The less dynamic the system, the more force applied to the gear placement(s).

Compared to rope failure, improper placement of trad gear, via placement, angle, direction and length of sling is a much more likely occurrence of major injury and death. What appears rational to so many who simply are not informed, is that a fat rope placed close to gear, either direct or via draws versus shoulder length slings, feels safer. In reality, that scenario sets up for a less dynamic system and thus more force being applied to the gear at bad angles. The biggest mistake I see being made out there are younger folks thinking if they shorten the attachment of the gear to their fat rope, the less distance they will fall. When in reality, they should be focused on force and direction of fall when slinging gear. What double ropes afford is two lines of direction along with extra force absorption. Typically more dynamic then a single rope, particularly on a large wandering route (i.e. Resolution Arete).

Another consideration in big alpine environs is rock fall cutting ropes. Having two ropes run apart, allows redundancy in the system via this threat, which is quite real if you have ever climbed young rock in glaciated terrain like the Canadian Rockies. Falling rock has killed friends of mine, it is not unheard of.

I personally was saved from a 140’ fall via a two rope system (Mammut 8.0's). I suffered a tore psoas, but would have actually been hurt much more and more than likely dead if in fact I had used a single rope regarding this particular event. I turned a huge roof the wrong way on an obscure tower next to glaciated terrain back in the Lake O’Hara region which is located behind Lake Louise. Once I realized I went the wrong way, it was too late. The last pro of mine was below the roof and was not slung near long enough (would have taken more slings then I had left to do so) to take any fall in a correct direction to the gear. I had no choice but to continue up 5.11 run out terrain before I would have the option to tie back left into the correct line of the route and thus pro opportunities. When a hold did flake off, I went flying and several pieces zipped as the direction of force was horizontal versus vertical in addition to the rock being young and thus having a clay texture. But because doubles were in play, an analysis of the fall later by Barry Blanchard and friends clearly showed that the double rope technique saved my life. It absorbed the incredible energy it had to absorb. As soon as the first piece was directionally correct, the system stopped my fall without breaking my back in two or failing.

It is ok to have fear, it can be useful. It can be dangerous to have irrational fear. Study the gear you spend your hard earned money on. Study the method of the system you are in fact relying to save you from injury or death if in fact you fall. Understand how serious a fall is from the station itself if not property attached, if not proper directional is used. It is these small things that will get you, not your rope breaking in half. Just won’t happen unless the rope has been compromised.

Stay Educated and therefore Safe.

Dow Williams wrote:When a route does call for long rappels…..to carry a tag ling and a lead line is a bit ridiculous versus using doubles with the exception that it is cheaper for those who don’t climb full time to just own one rope and maybe combine same lead rope with a partner's lead rope for longer routes, or buy a much cheaper tag line.

Another "exception": Leading on one 9 or 10 mil rope is less weight for the leader, with the second carrying the pull cord, compared to two 8's. Also less cluster at the belays.

Using a 6 mil tag line is OK, but it adds some risk (in case the fat rope gets stuck and all you have to ascend is the tag line). So at a place like RR, where ropes can snag more easily, doubles or twins are a better option.

However, there are Yos Valley routes where a 6 mm pull cord works great over the mostly smooth granite (where a rope won't get snagged as easily), in conjunction with a 9 or 10mm lead rope.

Just be aware of the pros and cons, and accept the attendant risk!

Once you get experience on doubles, there is no additional cluster at the belays...that is an old wifes tale or folks just not doing it right (do not seperate your ropes at the belay...I see this often). Actually to bring up a tag line takes more time. Keeping all gear, ropes and pro, between the leader and 2nd is safer. Tag lines can get stuck in cracks.

The weight issue is interesting and I will let some engineer type explain it...but a 10.5 single can weigh as much as doubles when compared to grams per meter...it is not as simple as thinking you have 16 mil vs 10.5 mil. Add the weight of the tag line to a single, and they will almost always weigh more on the approach then the doubles.

Regarding weight:
roughly speaking (not all ropes are as "densely" weaved as others; to be exact, use the g/m spec from the rope), the weight of a rope is proportional to the square of its diameter.
Hence:
one 10.5mm rope + one 6mm tag line: weight proportional to 10.5^2 + 6^2= 146.25
two 8.5mm ropes (doubles): 2*8.5^2 = 144.5
i.e. doubles weigh just about the same as a beefy single plus a tag line.
And yes, there are thinner singles (down to 9.2mm or so), but also thinner doubles (8.0). Substitute your own numbers.

Eric and Lucie wrote:Regarding weight: roughly speaking (not all ropes are as "densely" weaved as others; to be exact, use the g/m spec from the rope), the weight of a rope is proportional to the square of its diameter. Hence: one 10.5mm rope + one 6mm tag line: weight proportional to 10.5^2 + 6^2= 146.25 two 8.5mm ropes (doubles): 2*8.5^2 = 144.5 i.e. doubles weigh just about the same as a beefy single plus a tag line. And yes, there are thinner singles (down to 9.2mm or so), but also thinner doubles (8.0). Substitute your own numbers.

You should be squaring the radius, not the diameter.

Dow Williams wrote:Actually to bring up a tag line takes more time.

The "tag line" (aka: pull cord) is carried in the second's pack, so there is no time involved.

Eric and Lucie wrote:Hence: one 10.5mm rope + one 6mm tag line: weight proportional to 10.5^2 + 6^2= 146.25

Good job, I wouldn't have known the formulas!

But the leader isn't carrying both lines, just the fat rope. The second carries the pull cord.

Anyway, this thread has been interesting.

FrankPS wrote:...But the laader isn't carrying both lines, just the fat rope. The second carries the pull cord.

Not to put too fine a point on it but it can be argued that the rope drag of a zig-zagging single can more than offset any weight difference gained by having your second carry the tag line...

Jon Moen wrote: You should be squaring the radius, not the diameter.

You can square either, so long as you are consistent. You could instead square the circumference, if you so pleased.

Eric and Lucie wrote: the weight of a rope is proportional to the square of its diameter.

This is the important sentence, and is true.

-sp wrote: Not to put too fine a point on it but it can be argued that the rope drag of a zig-zagging single can more than offset any weight difference gained by having your second carry the tag line...

SP - Sounds good to me. And that applies whether you need double-rope rappels or not. Just pointed out that there are valid reasons for both systems (and that RR is better suited for twins or doubles, when double-rope rappels are needed). More than one way to skin the proverbial cat. Hence, I wrote previously:

FrankPS wrote:Just be aware of the pros and cons, and accept the attendant risk!

I grabbed specs for a few ropes from Mammut's website:

10.5 - 70g/m
9.8 - 63g/m
9.2 - 55g/m
8.0 - 41g/m (82 g/m for two)
8.5 - 48g/m (96 g/m for two)

The single line is lighter on the leader in all cases (leaving out rope drag which depends on many variables).

I saw 7mm accessory cord at 37g/m, so the doubles are lighter on the approach in most cases. Though maybe not if you factor in a 70m lead+60m tag vs. 70m doubles, if you want to do 70m pitches.

I climbed on doubles for a couple of years, all fine but if you ever screw up a clip and put an X going thru a biner - no fun. A 9.4 lasts well and has alot less rope drag compared to a 10 mm plus rope. I carry a 8 mil static for my rap rope but if it's windy and your on a tower it may wrap around the tower on you.

I don't like tag lines. One of my regular partners doesn't like double rope technique. Maybe I should get Dow to convince him the error of his ways, since I have been unable to.

You can try to minimize your weight using any of the previously mentioned methods (twins are the lightest at 37*2 gm/m), but if you go the tag line direction, you'll miss out on all of the other advantages that double rope technique provides:

1) less rope drag
2) clipping without adding any slack to the first rope which will catch you
3) climbing with a group of three where the two followers climb simultaneously on each strand of the double rope
4) easy to split up the weight between partners on the approach
5) softer catches
6) less force on anchors
7) reduced need for very long slings on many routes
8) safer through redundancy

If you give it a fair chance, you might find that you actually prefer leading on double ropes. I do, but many of my partners are skeptical and some don't like the minor additional effort of belaying with double ropes, so I often end up dragging a tag line around.

Dow Williams wrote: I personally was saved from a 140’ fall via a two rope system (Mammut 8.0's). I suffered a tore psoas, but would have actually been hurt much more and more than likely dead if in fact I had used a single rope regarding this particular event. I turned a huge roof the wrong way on an obscure tower next to glaciated terrain back in the Lake O’Hara region which is located behind Lake Louise. Once I realized I went the wrong way, it was too late. The last pro of mine was below the roof and was not slung near long enough (would have taken more slings then I had left to do so) to take any fall in a correct direction to the gear. I had no choice but to continue up 5.11 run out terrain before I would have the option to tie back left into the correct line of the route and thus pro opportunities. When a hold did flake off, I went flying and several pieces zipped as the direction of force was horizontal versus vertical in addition to the rock being young and thus having a clay texture. But because doubles were in play, an analysis of the fall later by Barry Blanchard and friends clearly showed that the double rope technique saved my life. It absorbed the incredible energy it had to absorb. As soon as the first piece was directionally correct, the system stopped my fall without breaking my back in two or failing. It is ok to have fear, it can be useful. It can be dangerous to have irrational fear. Study the gear you spend your hard earned money on. Study the method of the system you are in fact relying to save you from injury or death if in fact you fall. Understand how serious a fall is from the station itself if not property attached, if not proper directional is used.

WOW! I hate doubles myself and I have never heard of someone falling on a dynamic rope and having their back break from the force of the fall. I just put long skinny runners on when needed and use a super light tag line when needed(or make the follower carry whatever is needed). Of course, extending runners when needed as well.

In this extreme case, it was "our" assessment (studying real facts vs just speculating on the internet) that my pro could have easily continued to fail at the forces given on a single rope. Again, zero risk of the 8.0 Mammut rope breaking, which is the irrational fear many have about thinner ropes, versus real risk at improperly placed gear in bad rock not handling the direction and force of the fall. A much greater risk one should consider if fear is in fact an issue regarding what rope system to use. Again, what began this discussion.

Most folks are just ignorantly fearful of double rope systems that are in reality safer than a single rope. If folks would pay more attention to the more likely causes of failure versus the irrational fear of a rope breaking in two on a fall....simply because it is not thick enough (any rope can be compromised, particulary by rock fall)....I believe their priorities would be better served.

Dow,

Sounds like you are beginning to get a little soft, sounds like you need to harden up mate!

I prefer two 10.5's while on lead... Preferably 70's. I call it weight training! When I need to shed weight I start with the shirt first, then go straight for the rack.

When the rack gets light enough I begin going by the motto, "when in doubt, run it out!"

It's all prayers after that.

Cheers buddy.

Robert....dude....enough of this crap about weight...I am going free solo from now on, no shirt or pants....HTFU Club Membership Numero Uno

An option I go with if I think I'll need to rappel near the full length of my lead cord, maybe...is to put 6mm of pull cord in a bag and have the follower clip it to their harness. Small enough it doesn't weigh much and really doesn't get in the way. If I knew I'd have to rappel full length for a few pitches, I probably would go with a climbing rope as a tag line and just have the leader trail it.

Yeah, I prefer a single 60m too. Do have twins and doubles, though, and use them especially for anything adventerous in the alpine and/or ice.

I've made it clear I believe half ropes are the best system for most trad climbing. Heck, I sold my single 10.2 a few years ago because I just wasn't using it. But I think some of Dow's comments ought to be clarified.

If you just do a standard single-rope UIAA drop test (80 kg weight) with a single strand of a half rope, you get more or less the same impact loads that you get with a single rope. The idea that half ropes are intrinsically more dynamic is a myth and there is no confirmation for it in (the not very many) tests that have been performed.

But, I used the word "instrinsically" advisedly. If the pro deviates from a straight vertical line and causes bends in a single rope, then the friction at those bends has the effect of reducing the ability of sections of the rope from fully absorbing fall energy. Half ropes clipped appropriately so that they run in roughly parallel straight paths will have fewer bends and the angles will be closer to 180 degrees, and so the net effect is that the single rope system is stiffer even though the rope itself is not. This gets you back some of the dynamics Dow mentions, even though the effects are not due to a lower impact force for thinner ropes.

A second feature of thinner ropes that leads to lower impacts on the top pro is that they will start to slip through the belay device at lower loads. Many climbers report holding big falls without any rope slippage, but most people are not aware of the inertial slippage that is almost universally a part of big catches. In this slippage, the braking hand is drawn, under considerable tension, towards the belaying device, but the fall is arrested before any rope slips through the hand itself. This motion reduces peak gear loads without causing rope burns to the belayer, and as I said, may well go unnoticed. But it is there nonetheless, it will happen at lower loads with thinner ropes, and so the maximum impact on gear will be lowered too.

For weight, speed, and efficiency, a pair of half ropes is not necessarily the optimal set-up. In some areas (e.g. Indian Creek), the extra rope would be an impediment to effective motion while offering few advantages. But the one thing that is beyond contention is that half ropes are the safest option for ordinary trad climbing and can be better by a considerable margin over, say, a 6mm tag line if the party gets into some kind of serious trouble high up on a remote route.

I think some experienced climbers try double rope technique, screw things up because they are not used to a new system, and reject it because they are inexperienced in half rope technique, do not however think of themselves as inexperienced, and so blame their mistakes on the ropes.

In order to realize the advantages of half-rope technique, you do have to practice with them, preferably in cragging situations that will not punish you for time lost to handling errors, and you have to expect that there will be a learning curve that has to be negotiated. Not everyone wants to do this of course, and few people outside the UK "grow up" with half-rope methods as standard operating procedure. Fair enough, but the method shouldn't be rejected because of irrational fears or by virtue of inexperience with the system.

I climb on double 8.5mm 60s a lot and find its a better system than a single rope most of the time. Lower rope drag, increased margin of safety, extra lead line, etc. It's hard to imagine a suituation where single/tag line combo is a better way to go. If there are three people in your party, then it becomes a no brainer.

Like all things, there is a learning curve to being able to manage them well while belaying and leading, which probably contributes to the negative press for double ropes.