Can someone please explain this to me??

David Sahalie wrote:i really am considering finding some steep, soft, chossy rock and drytooling it until there are pockets big enough to free at say 5.12.

Please please do this and report back.

My opinion doesn't stem from a wealth of experience....but I have dry stooled and have sport climbed. It seemed like it took more focus and precision to prevent the ice axe from slipping off a small ledge and smashing me in the face than it did to grab a hold and pull. I don't know...what these guys are doing seems pretty awesome.....I don't see what the big deal is.

Disclaimer...I wasn't climbing 5.13 or above

i'd also like him to show us how they beat up the rock. All the drytooling ive ever seen is pretty precise tool placements not swinging like ice climbing.

Andrew Haag wrote: If Hank Caylor would just post a pic of some hottie in bikini dry toolin, everything would be ok.

wedgie bikini BASE jumpers is all I got..I'm a Texan and we usually don't do that icepick, rock, clawed boot thingy.
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David Sahalie and the rest who are complaining about this tiny crag:

Have you gone and tried these routes as sport climbs? Have you tried these routes as dry tool routes? If you haven't, you might want to do so.

In between your laps, you might just look over your shoulder and spot the other crags in the area. This tiny crag is less than 1% of the rock visibile from the location. It is in a heavily traveled location for ice climbing, mixed climbing, 4WD adventures, hiking, mountain flower photography, and maybe even some rock climbing. If you can't appreciate sharing the resources in this beautiful location, you may consider asking the folks with whom you are there for a bit of perspective. There is an amazing amount of adventure within your vision from this very spot.

I think the knee-jerking (I'm guilty) is due to all of us dreading the day kids start breaking their tools out at Shelf Road.

we should only dry-tool in areas already damaged like:

ouray (where we have been talking about) and
the sport park, boulder canyon (chipped routes)

;D

oh yeah, any slabs too... we don't like them!
slabs are bad, ummK

David Sahalie wrote: then you need to get out more. here as an article that rationally discusses the pros and cons, and doesn't hide from the fact that drytooling alters the rock: rockclimbinguk.co.uk/dry-to…

did ya read the article?

"But what about the mountain crags where classic summer rock routes are seeing ‘cold’ ascents using ice tools and crampons? Is the damage done to these routes any different than the scratches and scrapes caused by winter traffic? No really, says Mountaineer Andy Cave; ‘It is sad if a super classic route gets scratched but I guess there are lots of routes in Scotland that get damaged all the time, and lots of ridges that get scratched from walkers in crampons. Hopefully last winter was an exceptional one and lots of these classic routes don’t become too wintry again, meaning folk don’t damage them.’ Rob Gibson agrees that ‘that there can be no argument that using axes and crampons to climb will damage the rock, so it boils down to a debate about where scratches will be tolerated.’ He says that ‘traditionally mountain ridges have been climbed during winter and the scratches caused by this were unsightly to me when I first saw them, but this appears acceptable to climbers and walkers. Also in the mountains, summer drainage lines and vegetated ledges make for good winter routes that are not controversial."

Again, people are generally not dry tooling on places where there are rock routes. there is also not any swinging involved.

whatever, bet you think the Reds are still out to get us and Faux News is "fair and balanced"

vimeo.com/33032184
drytooling is fun. that is why i do it. and big name climbers participate. Will Gadd, Sam Elias,etc. I give 2 shits if you do or don't like it. I'm doing it. there is no law against it. in the words of Dave Chapelle playing the character Rick James, "Fuck your couch!

kevin fox wrote: drytooling is fun. that is why i do it. and big name climbers participate. Will Gadd, Sam Elias,etc. I give 2 shits if you do or don't like it. I'm doing it. there is no law against it. in the words of Dave Chapelle playing the character Rick James, "Fuck your couch!

Seen this sentiment posted several times here, including the developer's blog. My overall concern is, what is there in place keeping drytoolers off of established routes? Nothing but a thin veil of personal choice. Which means it is inevitable that this practice will eventually migrate out. What is the proponents plan for this?

Don't tool climbs in established crag areas where ice & alpine climbs aren't prevalent, it's simple to me.

David Sahalie wrote: ah yeah, and I also read: "He agrees however that if dry tooling is seriously damaging fine rock routes and only a minority are climbing them it should be discouraged. " It isn't a black/white issue, Fox news guy

"he agrees IF (IF IF IF IF)..."

which is why dry tool areas like the start of this thread are utter choss piles. you're not going to find the next Astroman up there. you guys act like these guys just go blindly onto a cliff and just start wacking away.

"What is there keeping the drytoolers of of established routes? A thin veil of personal choice. Which means it is inevitable that this practice will eventually migrate out......."
There is nothing in place to keep climbers from doing this and even if there were a small majority might decide that rules don't apply to them......

Maybe to some extent this statement has some cred. There are too many climbers who don't care about how their actions affect others to be able to control it all. There are too many of us now and too many who only care about themselves.

The massive bolting of previous trad routes is a good example of this. What keeps some people off those old, run-out trad routes is peer pressure to not take that action. Give those sport climbers the 'consent" to bolt up their own cliff and leave other cliffs alone. Drytooling will be no different. Leave that crag in Ouray to be developed for M-climbing and those climbers will probably not go to some cliff which is dedicated to rock climbing. Scruffy cliffs have long been ignored for developing rock routes are usually the best for drytooling anyway........

I know that in the Boulder climbing community there are more people drytooling than the majority of climbers there realize. Most of these climbers are very conscientious about putting steel to rock and don't scratch up the rock.........Drytooling in this canyon so far has NOT left its mark..........

David Sahalie wrote: I do see the difference, but until reinforcing chossy rock is seen as a viable option to drytooling, I am unsupportive of drytooling on any rock in the same way the majority of climbers are unsupportive of rock modification of any sort. Saying that one cant reinforce choss so it can be climbed with one's own tendons, and instead one can use artificial tendons (axes) that do modify the rock to some debateable degree, is the height of a double-standard. i do know what a strawman argument is, and this isn't it. example, this thread: mountainproject.com/v/nm-ic… is about an area that has bouldering that has been glued, and at the same area, people drytool on bolted routes. but, the gluers have been constantly haranged for their actions and drytooling is seen as a legitimate activity. see where I'm coming from on this?

But the places in Ourey are a local consensus that it is a dry tool crag. NO ONE climbs it with their hands. getting butthurt because a crag near you cannot come to a reasonable consensus that will let the boulderers use the low area and the dry toolers can have an approach route up one end to the upper part is the locals problem.

boulderers that have chipped and glued contrived problems complaining about holds getting messed up is kinda funny though. "i reject your reality and substitute my own!" -AS

Jake D. wrote: getting butthurt because a crag near you cannot come to a reasonable consensus that will let the boulderers use the low area and the dry toolers can have an approach route up one end to the upper part is the locals problem. -AS

From what I understand, the consensus among the boulders in this area is that dry tooling is not a legitimate activity. Regardless of the consensus of these climbers, the few are managing to ruin it for the many. I think the only solution to this problem is to shoot people with paintball guns when you see them dry tooling on an established route. I also think it would be legitimate activity to shoot people with a paint ball gun if you see them modifying an existing route by chipping or gluing. In short, if the only thing holding people back from dry tooling on established routes is common courtesy, the only thing keeping dry toolers from getting blasted with pain ball guns is the same (I am joking, kind of). I really have no problem with areas dedicated to this absurd activity, just as I have no problems with people gluing and chipping an area as long as it is the local ethic.

David is ridiculous in many ways but he may be on to something. It is very ironic that many of the practicing tools have such distain for manufactured routes. How many of you dry tools think people should have the right to modify un-climbed rock as they see fit? Do you really believe in freedom to choose or just the freedom of tools?

By modify I mean construct a route as I see fit. Chip it. Glue it. Drill it. Bolt it. Not exactly pc, but neither is raking your pick across a rock. This is obviously against the will of the masses (for the most part) but I would say it is similar to dry tooling in many aspects. They both permanently alter the surface of the rock. They both are largely un-popular practices that are chastized often due to what people decry as the ugly and permanent nature of the activity. They both use valuable resources that could be better used to wage war and kill people. They both are largely misunderstood practices utilized primarily by fringe elements. They both are pointless activities largely used to serve inflated egos. Do you, Andrew, support my right to glue and chip an entire cliff if I support your right to mangle a different one?

BTW, it is a felony to engage in insider trading, but just look how well those laws have worked. It's not so much about the law but about the ability of authorities to enforce said law. I just wish it was a felony to be a hypocrite, but of course I would be in jail as well. Sorry the paint ball comment hurt your feelings, as I said, I was joking. Kind of.

hey David Sahalie,
has anyone noticed that this gentleman joined only months ago? has nothing in his profile. and is just stirring the shit pot?
I'll be in vail mixed climbing this weekend. if you have issues with what i do with my free time, hike your ass up to the ampitheater and we can discuss it. you are more than welcome to bring your rope and sport rack and show me the error of my ways. Then we will move to the belfry and let us see you climb the routes in there.
Just noticed that Johny Q has nothing in his profile as well.

kevin fox wrote:hey David Sahalie, has anyone noticed that this gentleman joined only months ago? has nothing in his profile. and is just stirring the shit pot?

Yes.

He is also over in another thread defending the use of stick clips.

And as is pointed out in that thread, this kind of spray is a thing that only happens on the internet. These conversations do not exist in the real world.

I am not sure what you think I was wrong about, because I agree with everything you just wrote.

Andrew Haag wrote: Iv'e seen more classic's destroyed to impatiant climber's who cant wait till the sandstone dry's in Red Rocks, than I have tool marks on climbs.

Example please.

Either:
A) you don't go to ANY ice arenas

or

B)that hole in your neck is spewing garbage.