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When is it okay to open your mouth?

Cruxic · · Corvallis, OR · Joined May 2011 · Points: 15

I have a favor to ask. If you see my teenage son being reckless at your local crag PLEASE speak up!

Everyone here has been a teenager and remembers doing stuff that could have killed them. It's a miracle we all survived, yes? As FrankPS pointed out, sometimes a voice of reason is all it takes to overcome peer pressure or hormones.

Also keep in mind that, nobody wins when someone gets hurt at your local crag. It brings bad publicity and jeopardizes access. "No man is an island".

Finn The Human · · The Land of Ooo · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 106

I would rather speak up and potentially deal with someone being a grouch than see someone fall and get seriously injured/die.

Anyone who says they will keep their mouth shut regardless of the situation (and potentially watch someone die as a result) because it's "Natural Selection" is either:

- Soulless
- An idiot
- Lying
- Some combination of the above

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245

You know the real solution to the problem? Live in the east! Sure there is a lot less climbing, but there are A TON less climbers ;)

Yarp · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 0
Josh Kornish wrote: Most recent MP phenomenon: Every time Yarp gets a negative review an alternative profile by Yarp is made to side with him. In this case Alais 1, made on September 22, 2011. Yarp: still at 0
Wow Josh. You've sure impressed everyone with your brilliance. Do you really think a guy like me gives enough of a shit what some little puke on the internet says about me to bother wasting my time registering secondary profiles to support my original statements? Did you come up with this theory all on your own from the safety of your mothers basement or did you hear about this sort of intardwebz abuse at bible camp?
Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241

I'm one who convinces himself he's okay with people soloing however they choose. If they take a serious fall though, I'd prefer they die on impact so I don't have the risk of blood borne contagions through CPR administration.

But, yeah, it would totally suck to see a fatal fall of any kind. You are either experiencing a failure of imagination or are a sociopath if you think otherwise. Until proven wrong, you just have to believe the soloist(s) chose the situation and accept(s) the risk. Jackasses like the OP purportedly saw, however, would definitely make me cringe and cause me to doubt they knew what they were doing.

I'd keep out of it though, maybe tell them they are big dumb faces once they are back on flat ground. I'd also offer rescue if they freaked out - at the price of openly laughing at them, of course.

PatCleary · · Boston, MA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

I'm still a rookie climber, and next year will be the first real outdoor climbing (I'll admit it, I'm a gym rat). At this point, if a more experienced climber spotted something I was doing that put myself or a friend in danger, I'd hope they would point it out. It might be embarrassing for a minute, but there's a lot to learn, and things can go pear shaped really quickly. Hope a different perspective helps.

Patrick

Crag Dweller · · New York, NY · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
bearbreeder wrote: you have the choice of not climbing ... hell .. my day can be ruined by screaming top ropers ... but it is their right to climb beside me if they are not endangering anyone else course you do have the right to biatch ;) just as they have the right to ignore ya unless yr going to physically restrain someone from soloing =P
i didn't say anything specifically about soloing. i don't have any problem with soloists. i've been around as people were soloing and enjoyed sitting back and watching them do it, impressed by their mental strength.

but, for example, i'm going to say something if i see someone with an egregiously unsafe belay technique (or, lack thereof). in doing so, i make sure to offer input in a very diplomatic way that makes it obvious the intent is to provide information that may be helpful. i think that most people who 'open their mouths' and end up in an argument should reconsider their technique for interacting with others.

and, if something as benign as screaming top ropers ruins your day, you're allowing others to have too much of an impact on your experience.
Crag Dweller · · New York, NY · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
CascadeKid wrote: that's funny, you speak up to prevent other people from ruining your day - that's not altruism, it's selfishness. Edit: So, how do you walk out of your house? There are so many opportunities for others to ruin your day....
you're right. it's not altruistic. i didn't say it was.

as for your question, i find it quite easy to ignore most of those day to day things others do that some people allow to ruin their days.

i do, however, find it kind of hard to ignore the image of a body slamming into the ground or that person who is laying there in severe pain and who may be critically injured. and, i find it hard to enjoy climbing while a rescue operation is going on right next to me.

i have this inability to keep on climbing and ignore the urge to assist in whatever way I can.

maybe i'm just mentally weak.
Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266
BScallout wrote:Never. Keep it to yourself. It's not you're responsibilty to keep the dumb alive. If you don't like what they are doing, move along. It ultimately doesn't effect you. Why are some people so insistant on telling others what to do?
This is the attitude I instinctively agree with. Then I picture a 16 year old kid busted up dying at the bottom of the crag, would I walk away from that saying to myself "oh well". That would probably seriously fuck me up, I would probably think to myself, was there wasy anything I could have done to prevent it? On the other hand, realistically, saying something will probably not lead to any improvement in the situation, at least not at the moment. When people are a-holes like this its really a no win situation.

This same thread pops up about every 4 or 5 months and there is never a good answer.

If you do intervene, a lot would depend on how receptive the people you are talking to are and how good you are at getting your point across.
JoeP · · Littleton, CO · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 0
elena sera jose wrote:I hada couple of experiences when a climber got injured and some people just continued climbing and ignored the entire situation, some cam up and asked what can be done to help, of course wilfers, emt's and firefighters were running to help. Me an rn of course running to help and very grateful to help. Our day is not ruined by helping others especially those who pursue the same passion, it's a great chance to be of assistance to another human being, it's noble!
Noble? Isn't that going a bit far, like how every firefighter, no matter what they do, is automatically a "hero?" You said yourself that you are "very grateful" to be able to help, so isn't it more that people who are nurses, doctors, emt's, etc. do what they do because it makes them feel good about themselves?

Not trying to be an asshole, but the societal exalting of health care personnel is a bit much.

That said, I think most all of us would try to help if someone was hurt, there is nothing noble about that, it's just the golden rule. However, I completely understand the climbers that don't offer to assist when there is already a cadre of emts, WFRs, and the like. Sort of like when someone's car breaks down and the tow truck is already there, and you couldn't fix the chain on a bicycle much less diagnose an engine problem - can't really be much of a help and if anything will just get in the way.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

i guess i try to figure out if they seem like the type that would appreciate or be annoyed by me trying to help and then act accordingly. with some folks, it almost eggs them on to me mroe stupid if you try to point out something safety related. other folks will appreciate your help and either accept your advice, or kindly dismiss it.

Nic Harnish · · Durango, CO · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 615

throw rocks at them

beachplus4 · · So San Francisco · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 50

Thanks for all the advice! You all really blew my mind.

Johny Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 35

Let natural selection do the work?

doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264

Most people who'd not done any roped climbing can't differentiate between 5.6 or 5.0 or 4th class for that matter. IMO, in some situations it's better keep your mouth shut than saying something like you're gonna die and psyching them out.

Dan CO · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 60

I have been very very lucky to have a few great mentors to teach and guide me along my very young climbing career. Not everybody gets the chance to learn from others and in climbing, learning lessons 'the hard way' can have pretty dire consequences. Why not speak up when somebody is doing something you feel is dangerous to themself or others. Maybe you could help prevent an accident, or maybe YOU are wrong and can learn something from them. Either way, isn't it always worth the effort to try to lend a hand? It is easy to say on the internet that you should let the idiot fall to his death, but any reasonable person would do what they can to help someone who may not know how to help themselves.

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241
JoeP wrote: Noble? Isn't that going a bit far, like how every firefighter, no matter what they do, is automatically a "hero?" You said yourself that you are "very grateful" to be able to help, so isn't it more that people who are nurses, doctors, emt's, etc. do what they do because it makes them feel good about themselves?
Yes, healthcare can make you feel good about yourself. It can also make you feel like crap. You're right, "noble" probably is a bit too elevated a title to apply willy nilly to every RN, MD, firefighter, EMT, whoever... So there's some back patting, a little hero worship, some overt ball cuppage perhaps, but I'll take people choosing to help others in their most dire circumstances who maybe have some ulterior ego motives over a lawyer any day of the week.
JoeP · · Littleton, CO · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 0
Zeke wrote: Yes, healthcare can make you feel good about yourself. It can also make you feel like crap. You're right, "noble" probably is a bit too elevated a title to apply willy nilly to every RN, MD, firefighter, EMT, whoever... So there's some back patting, a little hero worship, some overt ball cuppage perhaps, but I'll take people choosing to help others in their most dire circumstances who maybe have some ulterior ego motives over a lawyer any day of the week.
Hah! I'm right there with you...that is until the doc amputates the wrong appendage!
CascadeKid · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 0
Crag Dweller wrote: maybe i'm just mentally weak.
your words, not mine. I respect your personal honesty.

Personally, I take grave offense when someone tells me how to live my life, as I don't tell anyone else how to live theirs. I wonder how many people take offense when an evangelical tells you how to live your life. I wouldn't be surprised if many of you thought or told them to "go f yourself".

JoeP wrote: What's funny? He never said anything about having an altruistic motive. And what is wrong with being selfish? He owes no obligation to anyone other than himself and his climbing partner. You imply that selfishness is categorically negative. Will you fault him for being selfish if his self interest, enjoying a day of climbing, prevents an accident?
Yes, I would. I believe those kids knew that their actions were inherently dangerous, and that was part of the allure - similar to me riding my bike across a 6 lane road without looking when I was about their age.

Joe, next time you climb I think you should give everyone a safety brief that is climbing around you. That way everyone understands your tolerance level and can abide by your rules of life. Also, that affords everyone the opportunity to voice their individual tolerance for risk, so no one violates each others desire to have a good day.

What's funny is that it's not a RIGHT to have a good day - that's the most absurd thought around!
Mark Vogel · · Lander, WY · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 35

Never miss an opportunity to keep your mouth shut.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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