Bowline tie in knot..
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Derek Doucet wrote: No, never in my climbing career have I welded a Fig.8 knot. Never. Not once. I've had a few that required a bit more work to untie than others, but never, ever have I had any significant problem. As for bulk, please provide me with an example of a situation in which the relative bulk of a fig.8 knot compared to a bowline/stopper knot combination has ever made a substantive difference in your success or failure on a route. As for unimpeachable coolness, don't hate me because I was born this way. Again, I have no issue with the bowline tie in. I just think the rationalizations people use don't hold up to scrutiny.I like a less bulky knot-get over it, son. Attributing "rationalizations" to people with considered opinions is BS. Maybe your coolness is overestimated. |
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I tie the figure 8 on multi-pitch routes cause you only have to untie once at the end of the climb. I tie a bowline on sport days so it is easy to untie after a whipper. Yea it doesn't make a world of a difference, but it IS easier to untie after falling, and I think that warrants enough reason to use it. I like to pull on crimps, not knots. I agree, Bulkiness has nothing to do with it. O yea, it is a fashion statement as well. Everyone knows you look way cooler with a bowline on your crotch. Figure 8, that is so last season. If you can't properly tie and check the bowline then you shouldn't be climbing. Bowlines only come untied with reciprocal loading and without a backup. Tie it properly and there is nothing to worry about just as the 8. |
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Derek Doucet wrote: No, never in my climbing career have I welded a Fig.8 knot. Never. Not once. I've had a few that required a bit more work to untie than others, but never, ever have I had any significant problem. As for bulk, please provide me with an example of a situation in which the relative bulk of a fig.8 knot compared to a bowline/stopper knot combination has ever made a substantive difference in your success or failure on a route. As for unimpeachable coolness, don't hate me because I was born this way. Again, I have no issue with the bowline tie in. I just think the rationalizations people use don't hold up to scrutiny.Exactly how many times has your figure-eight scored you a chick? None? Just what I thought... |
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I switched over to a bowline follow through type knot about 6 years ago after constantly welding figure 8's from whippers (when I weighed 210 lb). I use the follow through as shown in "Freedom of the HIlls" and tie a fisherman's backup out of habit. Never had issues with welding the bowline, the bowline knot is just as compact... maybe a little more compact than an 8, and I really don't rely on knots for social status. Do what works for you... just make sure that you always check your harness and your knots. |
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Right. So I've always used an 8, but this discussion prompted me to sit down and try a few bowline variations in my living room, just to check them out. I'm always interested in trying new things. I tied an 8, a Yosemite bowline, and a rewoven bowline. Here's what I found: The Yosemite bowline uses less rope than the 8. The rewoven bowline uses about the same amount. Both bowlines are slightly less bulky than the 8. None of these differences were large. |
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Interesting progression of a tie-in: I used to tie in with a bowline. Went back to the figure eight. I finish it by tucking the tail back through the bottom of the eight. Stays out of my way and helps the eight not cinch up so tight if I weight it. Easy. |
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Figure 8's suck! They tighten up when you take a fall and no matter how you dress it you will be using your teeth to untie it if that fall was 20+ feet. Irony: I still use a figure 8 because I could tie it drunk and only half way and it would still hold a fall. |
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Hey Bryan what do you call that knot? |
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-sp wrote: Exactly how many times has your figure-eight scored you a chick? None? Just what I thought...Well played, sir. |
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Joe Huggins wrote: I like a less bulky knot-get over it, son. Attributing "rationalizations" to people with considered opinions is BS. Maybe your coolness is overestimated.There's nothing for me to get over. I hope it is clear from my posts that I have nothing against the bowline as a tie-in knot. If a partner told me s/he just preferred it and left it at that, provided I was certain they could tie it correctly 100% of the time, I would be perfectly happy. My choice of the word "rationalization" could be read as unnecessarily harsh. That was not my intention, it was a poor choice of words, and I apologize if it came across as confrontational or condescending. I do however stand by my assertion that most (all?) of the reasons folks cite for tying in with bowlines do not hold up to objective scrutiny. YMMV. |
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bradyk wrote:Hey Bryan what do you call that knot?It kinda starts out life as a Yosemite-esque bowline. I noticed when I used a bowline, that unless I kept the rabbit down in the hole, that the rope tended to slide back down and through the knot. In the case above, if the loops get crossed, the knot comes completely undone. Scary. The beauty of the bowline is that its really easy to loosen. Also its downfall as a tie in knot, methinks. Most long time users I know back it up below ground, so to speak, by tying it off below the hole rather than above. That way, if the back up does come undone, it still won't tend to slide back down through the knot. Funny that folks want a lower profile tie in knot, but, add a double fishermans to it. A figure eight with the end of the rope poked back through the bottom of the eight is pretty darn low profile and easy to untie even after a fairly good load. |
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I have never seen it tied that way. Pretty cool way of doing it differently. |
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Mike R. wrote:Figure 8's suck! They tighten up when you take a fall and no matter how you dress it you will be using your teeth to untie it if that fall was 20+ feet.Hah. Spare your choppers! Being too weak not to have welded a few 8's myself, and therefore probably too weak to untie them afterwards, I force a big biner around the follow-through strand just under the last pass for some much needed leverage. Something with a pointed nose, like the Petzl Attache, makes it all the easier to perform that crucial first penetration. Perhaps this is common practice, though, and I'm just underinformed? |
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These guys use the figure 8 to send 5.16. Its good enough for me. |
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Derek Doucet wrote: My choice of the word "rationalization" could be read as unnecessarily harsh. That was not my intention, it was a poor choice of words, and I apologize if it came across as confrontational or condescending.Cool, thanks |
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Choss Chasin' wrote: Figure 9 = ParanoiaHow's that? It get's rid of that crappy back-up knot above the fig 8. Figure 9 (Yosemite finish) = cleanliness, simplicity |
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i like how the op's thread got completely hijacked. he didn't ask anyone what knot they tie in with (i'm guessing he doesn't care). he just wanted more information on a knot he wants to use. |
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gatch wrote:too many people riding around here on really high horses.Show me an online forum where this isn't the case. |
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Adam Winters wrote: Show me an online forum where this isn't the case.very good point. |
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Amazing how stuck in their ways some climbers can be. There's more than one way to skin a cat besides the conventionally accepted fig 8. |