need opinions: passing without permission/total disregard

So two partners and i went to climb the nw. books on lembert dome, we made the hike and and let 2 parties go before us, as we knew we would probably be slower.....

anyways, i started up the first pitch and this guy comes from the bottom and stands in FRONT of my belayer blocking her view and hitting her in the face with his rope....she stated to the guy that we were gonna be awhile and that he should wait.... so he waits for me to finish the pitch, and then follows my third up....

from here he states that he will pass and be quick and efficient without asking....not cool

i tell him i dont want him to pass because i already waited for 2 other parties and i dont want him jamming up the route AND i dont want the added dangers from MORE climbers above.

so then he starts in with this SHIT about" in this day and age....."
while trying to state he is not trying to be rude....only making my blood boil more!!!

Then he has the nerve to ask me if there are rap anchors where i am!!!

WTF??? you are trying to bully your way past people on a route you know nothing about??? WTF????

i dont usually have a prob with someone passing me, but no respect and not taking no for an answer when your in the wrong, will piss me off!!!

so after a few mins of arguing, (all the time trying not to tell this guy to fuck off) i tell him to GO!!! i was sick of hearing his bitch little mouth....

so my question is: what would you have done in my positon????

You have been dick-mouthed. I reccommend an equal ratio of mouthwash and peroxide to wash your gob out with. Floss regularly and avoid taxed-ass climbing areas.

thats some funny shit!!! god i miss eldo!!!! atleast people have respect there!!

i think that route just attracts those sorts of folks. when we climbed it i was leading the crux and placed a high piece. some red headed guy below yelled up "do you want me to set up a top rope for you?". when we got to the top of the route we waited for at least 2 hours so i could have a discussion with him. after 2 hours we left and hiked the LONG way back to the car. then, after another hour of eating lunch, the guy and his female partner shuffled by. he saw me, and then immediately looked away, pretending not see me. we just laughed. moral of the story, if you are going to talk a big game, please don't take several hours to do the pitch.

Well, the dude sounds a bit lame. And I seem to remember this as a 2-pitch climb, which makes it even more ridiculous.

Here's what I have done in similar situations where it's fairly obvious that the party ahead is going to be slower:

1) Ask to pass at a convenient spot (e.g. the first belay). If the party ahead says "no," I don't try to pass.

2) Go do something else and come back later.

3) Wait on the ground until the leader finishes 2 or 3 pitches and then start. At least this way I get to wait on the ground in the shade (or sun).

4) If I'm the one going slow, I ALWAYS offer the faster team the chance to pass.

But you were there first, you had every right to tell him not to pass.

The only time where I've passed without asking is when I arrived at the base of a longer alpine route and there were a bunch of inexperienced parties standing around chatting, snacking, slowly stacking ropes, and doing everything except actually starting up the route. I tied in and started climbing and told my wife to tie in and climb when the rope went tight. We were 3 pitches up before the next party even started. I'm sure they thought I was an ass though.

JLP wrote:Get used to it if you want to climb popular moderates slow. He may have been in the "wrong", but only by wanting to pass on a jammed route. You weren't in the "right" either by bringing a slow party of 3 on a classic multipitch. There are no written rules and you don't own the rock. Also - this kind of nonsense never happens between experienced climbers on harder routes.

Exactly!

I'm sure the guy would've toasted my backside, but it would also have toasted my backside to come up to a popular multi pitch moderate and find a party of three. It's just one of those things...

I think the point about experienced climbers not having these issues is SO salient. Here are two quotes about climbing etiquette/getting along from two exceptional climbers.

"Usually, the quietest one is the most competent"
"Yeah, it gets crowded out here when we're all out with clients, but everybody is so good at what they do that its never an issue.

Also, let someone pass in these situations. Did he end up jamming the route once he past?

In golf, in mtn biking, even in hiking everyone knows that if you're slow, you get the hell out of the way for the more competent party. Only in rock climbing and driving is this an issue, probably because it's harder to pass, and there is a perception that passing could somehow be dangerous.

So parties of three have no right to climb a popular moderate? BS. You were considerate and let others pass. When you get in these kinds of situations you just have to be firm. Let the entitled ass know you are not going to change your mind and he needs to wait his turn. Have a plan, maybe have the second belay up the third while you start up the next pitch. It is pretty challenging to pass a climber in a crack and you can always resort to the mule kick. Unfortunately sometimes you have to be an ass right back to keep people from stepping on you.

The thing is that most competent climbers are able to come up with back-up plans, pass on a variation or climb something else. It is usually a sign of incompetence when someone trails you then acts like a jerk. Too self-centered or afraid to change their plans and climb something else.

You get there first, you go up there first. Period. End of story.
I totally agree if you're the most competent, fastest party, you have a Plan B.
I was racking up for the Regular Route on Fairview a number of years back and a party came up and asked to go ahead. No way, I told them, how do you know you're faster than we are? I had done the route several times before and just because I'm female doesn't mean I'm slow. We left them in the dust.

Its too bad this won't become an episode of Curb your Enthusiasm. Some people are social assassins, you shouldn't let them get under your skin or they win. And if you knew you were going to take a long time why not just let the other guys go by quickly.

Anybody has the right to climb whatever they want to. with as many people as they want to .whenever they want to. when they are first inline on a climb. At what ever grade they want to. And take as much time as they want to. If i roll up to a climb . Here in the sierras and some one is practicing some sort of rescue techniques , top roping, aid climbing , or what the hell ever. I just go some were else. who cares their is plenty of rock on this planet. This sort of egotistic attitude comes a lot from people on their vacations from the city. pressed for time.. hurry . hurry. hurry. when I get up to climb at a certain area , I have a back up plan of something else to climb . just in case someones on it allready.

There are no hard and fast rules re: passing. Climbers are going to pass with and without permission. Climbing without permission does not always imply that it is done with total disregard.

There is a tacit understanding in many situations where the faster party has the right of way. e.g. those doing a route in a day versus those equipped and are planning to bivy on a wall. While there is no obligation to allow any party to pass on through, it's standard etiquette.

Now on a two pitch route? That was just poor form. Most climbers are decent and will pass safely and quickly. Things get hairy when you have two in a push parties that are running at similar paces. Shit happens. At best, all involved act civil and figure out what's optimal. At worst, everyone is miserable and angry.

We accept the risks of climbing underneath others. Passing parties also accept the responsibility of now having a party under them that willingly let them pass. I believe there's even legal precedent for this after a passing party dislodged a rock and killed a climber below them (not sure).

You were in the "at worst" scenario. But hey, at least it was a 2 pitch route. Some people suck. More often than not, all parties will deal with logistics in an amicable way.

And if you climb enough, sure, you will undoubtedly one day run into another arrogant climber that passes without thought, drops gear or rocks from above and sets an anchor right in the middle of your lead. So, you know, bring a knife.

JLP wrote:We need a "Butthurt" forum for those who can't deal with the real world. People could go there with their whiney ass complaints, their rules on how things should be - a place to tell us about all the douchebags in the world - all without the inconveniences of reality - such as rolling eyes, distant glazed stares, people walking away or falling into a medical coma, or possibly punching your face in. While we only have one side of the story here (as usual, but just wait...), what I've seen is that if you are so slow your actions (or lack of) threaten to warp the space-time continuum - you're pretty much going to get stepped on and passed - this on a route 10 mins from the road - a five star classic - in Yosemite - in the high season. No Shit, dude. Oh, and it's So Wrong. Whatever. So sorry your little fantasy of a slow, leisurely and unfettered stroll up this route didn't pan out.

Isn't that what Mountain Project already is, why do we need a butthurt thread when we already have MP? Or at least that is what your post lends me to believe you are using the forum for. Regardless of knowing both sides of the OP's story or not, or his ability to climb fast or not, or which route he chooses to climb, he asked for valid opinions given the variables of the scenario that he stated, Not for a sarchastic slandering from you.

George [and a few others] nailed it. Misery loves company and this guy probably lives in a world of frustration, hate, anxiety and resentment. Instead of treating him like the ass his was being, I suggest the compassionate route and just politely let them know what his options are:

1.) present a land deed showing ownership of stated land and subsequent route in question
2.) resort to his backup plan ("You DO have one, right?!")
3.) get up earlier
4.) go for a walk
5.) take a nap
6.) pack sand

Just remember to do so with a bright and cheery smile on your face. I honestly can't imagine someone getting that dorked out of shape over a 2p route. Thanks for reminding me just how fortunate I am.

JLP wrote: Also - this kind of nonsense never happens between experienced climbers on harder routes.

Yes it does. Not as much, but if anything there's probably more dick wagging when it does.

JLP wrote:We need a "Butthurt" forum for those who can't deal with the real world. People could go there with their whiney ass complaints, their rules on how things should be - a place to tell us about all the douchebags in the world - all without the inconveniences of reality - such as rolling eyes, distant glazed stares, people walking away or falling into a medical coma, or possibly punching your face in. While we only have one side of the story here (as usual, but just wait...), what I've seen is that if you are so slow your actions (or lack of) threaten to warp the space-time continuum - you're pretty much going to get stepped on and passed - this on a route 10 mins from the road - a five star classic - in Yosemite - in the high season. No Shit, dude. Oh, and it's So Wrong. Whatever. So sorry your little fantasy of a slow, leisurely and unfettered stroll up this route didn't pan out.

So who, exactly, is the most butthurt here?

jon vandub wrote:thats some funny shit!!! god i miss eldo!!!! atleast people have respect there!!

I had something similar happen to me in Eldo. I was on Yellow Spur for the first time... we waited at the base for a party to get a couple of pitches up. As I was belaying my partner up the first pitch, these two girls show up and are being incredibly rude...
One explains that she has climbed the route numerous times but wants to take her girlfriend on it, and that they have class that afternoon. I ran p2 and p3 together so they caught up and started leading p2 while my partner was still at the first belay crossing ropes, etc.

I thought it was incredibly rude and was in total disbelief when on the second to last pitch I made my belay on the higher ledge leaving them the lower ledge to be comfortable, and the girl came and built an anchor on top of my friend on that tiny ledge!

It was my first time on the route, so I certainly didn't set any speed records, but it took us 2 hours, which isn't ridiculously slow. We got back to our packs and had a snack and waited over 30 minutes and the girls still hadn't made it down when we left, so they weren't going super fast either (in fact, the second was french freeing the route, which is the only way they were keeping up).

My view is that if you have done the route numerous times and you are in an area like Eldo where there are hundreds of free routes (it was a weekday), then either you are a little patient and wait, or you go do something else...

That being said, I have also gotten stuck behind an insanely slow party on Bastille Crack with a thunderstorm moving in. That really sucked, but in their defense, what can you expect on one of the most classic easy lines in the area? Where else will beginners go?

In most situations, if people are cool and polite, it doesn't turn into a problem. If I am climbing much slower than other people I let them pass, but if I have waited my turn in line and am climbing reasonably fast, I expect people to either show some courtesy, or if they are in such a hurry, to find something else to climb...

slim wrote:moral of the story, if you are going to talk a big game, please don't take several hours to do the pitch.

I had a similar situation last month on Third Pillar. This party started the route at 2pm. They communicated to my party of 3 that they were going to pass us very soon and didn't like the fact that we were splitting this particular pitch in two. I witnessed him take 2 falls on a 5.10b layback. He then tried to find another variation. After I'm 15 feet from topping out on the route, I hear "HEY PARTY ABOVE US!". He needed me to fix a line because his partner was freezing cold and weak, said something like "hes getting hypothermic".... I asked if they had bivy gear. He said no and that he would buy me whatever 6 pack of beer I wanted. We fixed them a line and went back to the car. They returned our cams/rope at 2pm.

Not sure why they started that route at 3pm w/ 1 headlamp, no bivy gear, no cell phone.

I still want that 6 pack.

Ha. Another great and funny thread. I,too, have used the don't ask, just tell passing method. Just preface it with some niceties and concerns about the party in front. "What ya think of that pitch, dude?", "yeah, I thought it was a little run, too". "Where u guys from?", "cool, do you know my friend Gomez? He put up the Gomezmatron on the Buttsplinter wall.." Etc. All the while you are preparing to pass. Then when you say, "hey, we're gonna get out in front here and get going" your new pal is hardly gonna shut you down. I mean, you both know Gomez after all and that dude's the bomb! "We should all grab a beer in the parking lot!" U say as you leave the belay knowing full well you'll be knee deep in a bottle of bourbon back at yer pad long before they top out. Easy peezy. And if you do run into them again down the road, you can say "hey I met you guys on such and such"... as you help yourself to one of their beers.
As to the people have respect in Eldo comment. Hilarious. We could fill a 50 page thread with stories about Boulder climbers being annoying in Eldo and everywhere else, but let's not go there because I'm friends with a lot of them;)

+1 Kalous, that nails it spot on.

Kalous, you are my hero. too many bad vibes on this page and you make it so simple. this guy is going places.