Black Diamond Aspect Climbing Harness **FAILURE** warning long post

to get a pizza...

Stormeh wrote:OP? Where did you go?

I'm still here. I will post responses to every question and speculation everyone here has soon enough. I was to tired to respond late Monday Night, took an all day bouldering trip yesterday, and was way to exhausted to check my email and post here again.

Can someone tell me how to do multiple "quotes" when replying so I don't have multiple/different replies when I re-post again. Thanks :)

Ok PEOPLE LISTEN STOP QUESTIONING RN CLIMBER I WAS THE CLIMBER WHO TOOK THE FALL AND BEFORE EVERY CLIMB WE CHECK TO MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS GOOD HE DID NOTHING WRONG THE HARNESS WAS NOT LOOSE!! LETS ME SAY THAT AGAIN THE HARNESS WAS NOT LOOSE AND HE WAS DOUBLE BACKED YES I ALMOST GOT VERY HURT BUT IT WAS NOT HUMAN ERROR IT WAS ALL IN THE HARNESS

Dane wrote: My point is simple. John Wilder doesn't know how BD will handle this or any other quality control issue, or when. You know what you have been told. A 2 minute search on the Internet should tell you how credible what you have been told actually is. You wrote on this thread, "I believe that if anyone has an issue, especially one involving safety, they should contact the manufacturer FIRST. Give them a chance to respond (quickly). Then post to the boards (and preferably let the manufacturer know they are doing this)." "Thankfully BD has been notified and is investigating this particular issue and if there is a safety issue for a batch of the Aspect harnesses, they'll recall them and fix/replace them quickly." Obviously the fastest way for climbers to become aware of a safety issue is by using forums and blogs. How long it takes a company to comment publically is anyone's guess. When they do it is also obvious what the fastest way is to reach their market. I no longer swallow the line of "we are all climbers and this keeps us up at night." The facts don't bear that comment out. Truth is we are climbers and it is your responsibility to come home at night. It is "their" responsibiity to sell us more gear every year. Think not? Then why would the policy be, "spoke with someone from Warranty...."return it to REI to get a new Harness"...He re-assured me that their harness have been tested vigorously and that it only fails when not properly used."?

You're right he did speculate that "if there is a safety issue" "they'll recall them and fix/replace them quickly".
So he was giving BD the benefit of the doubt. Which, while I onviously disagree, is the apporpriate thing to do.
I assure you John knows more about how the outdoor industry works than most people.

So, tell me why you felt the need to jump somebody who was purely restating what was said previously, then obviously hoping the company would do the right thing?

josh

i'm still a fan of the old school double back buckle. rope and harness are key safety items, not fashion or hipster light weight part of the system. beef is best and keeps you safe.
i have had these types of buckles slip while gear loops are fully loaded with trad gear, so i have switch to safe tech and no longer worry abut my harness..

matt hallman wrote:Ok PEOPLE LISTEN STOP QUESTIONING RN CLIMBER I WAS THE CLIMBER WHO TOOK THE FALL AND BEFORE EVERY CLIMB WE CHECK TO MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS GOOD HE DID NOTHING WRONG THE HARNESS WAS NOT LOOSE!! LETS ME SAY THAT AGAIN THE HARNESS WAS NOT LOOSE AND HE WAS DOUBLE BACKED YES I ALMOST GOT VERY HURT BUT IT WAS NOT HUMAN ERROR IT WAS ALL IN THE HARNESS

you missed a letter

matt hallman wrote: I WAS THE CLIMBER WHO TOOK THE FALL AND BEFORE EVERY CLIMB WE CHECK TO MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS GOOD

RNclimber wrote: My buddy first reacted by telling me that my leg loops weren't doubled back

Sounds like you were REALLY SURE!!!

I don't think this incident will be easily replicated in a video, so give the OP a break. Is he not allowed to leave his computer screen for a few hours?

People, all quick-lock type buckles are known to do this. Do yourself a favor and buy a harness with dbl-back buckles and this wont even possibly be a problem.

This isn't an exclusive issue to BD, how they specifically handle a complaint is the issue specific to them.

matt hallman (if that is your real name), people complain about alot of products on MP and elsewhere but it usually ends up being an user error. Per the comments of RN I and I'm sure others noticed a lack of experience (first catch ever?) that might indicate this to be true. I'm not saying it is but our questions are not attacks, they are simply questions. Screaming that IT WAS NOT LOOSE doesn't prove to me or others that it wasn't but that might not have been the issue anyway.
A harness falling apart is a rare circumstance, these things are tested by machines and athletes before they hit the market and therefore the scenario seems unlikely, although that doesn't mean that it's impossible that BD fucked up, just that it's unlikely.
Look up the real story on BPA, it was a totally blown out of proportion and alot of business suffered because some jack-ass didn't check the facts or the science.

Therefore, before everyone just jumps on the bandwagon and says "fuck Black Diamond" how about a little fact checking first? As Amos Tupper always says "These are just routine questions M'am!"

Stormeh wrote:So where's the video that's been promised? RNclimber made it clear that the problem was easily repeatable and yet we still don't have proof.

Since I still don't know how to quote everyone in just one reply message I will do it individual until I learn how...

Are you talking to me Stormeh? I don't ever recall stating that the problem was easily repeatble and that I will provide a video of repeating the incident...

Mike Bonds wrote: Post video of recreating it! Seems unbelievable until you do.

And to everyone that wants me or anyone else to try to repeat the incident to show proof, WHAT THE F*CK are you thinking? Do you guys really want me or other people to risk a climbers life again or injure them selves by trying to imitate a failing/failed harness? What IF I did try to do replicate the incident again, with the same exact equipment, same climb, same area of the fall, and instead of 2 loops failing, all three fail and my climber gets injures or DIES!! WTF? Are you guys stupid?

AND do you think my partner would want me to belay him again on that same harness? REALLY? If I came up to you and asked "Hey can you take a fall while I belay you on this Harness. It failed on me before and I want to try to replicate the same incident to see if the harness will fail again. I hope it doesn't because I don't want you to hit the ground or almost hit the ground like my previous partner." I don't even know why you guys would think that would be a smart idea to replicate. AND I don't have the dollar amount or equipment to replicate the incident using dummies, or similar objects to replicate that same scenario, so NO and I repeat NO, I will not try to make a video and try it again.

Tico wrote: So I could see how an improperly sized harness (too big), that was loaded by holding a leader fall, could be pulled into an orientation that would cause buckle slippage. The harness should be cinched down snuggly, not worn loosely around the hips, like I see so many skittle-thugs doing these days.

Mark Nelson wrote: Tico is getting at what I'm trying to figure out; is this a defect, or a harness that wasn't fitting properly to begin with?

Nick Rhoads wrote: I think the OP's harness was not tightened down enough, this could cause ANY speed buckle to slip. Usually I use a BS Big Gun (trad buckles) with great success.

And to everyone else that is speculating that my harness is to big or it wasn't tightened enough...Did you guys not read the part that said that I just got done doing a route prior and that we checked each other? First off, why would I ever wear a loose fitting harness and risk my life or my partners life? Second, I did mention that I just did a route and lowered my partner find, was lowered find, and I also cleaned the route prior, weighting the harness. If it wasn't properly fitted prior, wouldn't it have slip then? If you guys are still concerned about it to big or not on right here is a picture of the harness on me..
--- Invalid image id: 107193462 ---

Showing fit

leg loop fit

View from top

RNclimber

Someone else volunteered to make some sort of video so I guess everyone got confused with you.

Nobody is asking you to go try to hold a real fall with the harness again. You can simulate it again by fixing the rope to a low bolt or other object, then tie yourself in and take a short fall over a crash pad or something else soft.

RNclimber wrote: To verify what happened, I put my harness back on the way it was, and sure enough, I tugged on the belay loop and the waist strap came sliding a few inches.

This doesn't sound dangerous to repeat - can you/someone make a video of this? Especially if you mark it with some sort of tape, "a few inches" should be really easy to see. I'm much more concerned/doubtful about inches of slip and complete unbuckling than the more 'minor' loosening that others seem to be commenting on.

RNclimber wrote: To verify what happened, I put my harness back on the way it was, and sure enough, I tugged on the belay loop and the waist strap came sliding a few inches. ALL THREE straps (waist and 2 leg straps) were all doubled back and the ends were slip through the loops provided on the waist and leg strap.

RNclimber, we're not asking for a video of a fall again, because as stated that would be dangerous. We're asking for a video of the above quote from you in your original post. I think a video of this behavior would be indicative of the more severe problem that occurred in a fall. The waist strap should NOT slide, even a few inches, and especially when tugged on.

mike h wrote: This doesn't sound dangerous to repeat - can you/someone make a video of this? Especially if you mark it with some sort of tape, "a few inches" should be really easy to see. I'm much more concerned/doubtful about inches of slip and complete unbuckling than the more 'minor' loosening that others seem to be commenting on.

This is in NO WAY similar to what happened during the fall/incident. This video is showing ME, with the harness properly fitted RIGHT, with the straps properly placed right through the buckles, and ME pulling on a certain part of the leg loop showing slippage. I am not trying to imitate what happened, but just showing you exactly what I just stated.

youtube.com/watch?v=tSB9HgS…

RNclimber wrote: This is in NO WAY similar to what happened during the fall/incident. This video is showing ME, with the harness properly fitted RIGHT, with the straps properly placed right through the buckles, and ME pulling on a certain part of the leg loop showing slippage. I am not trying to imitate what happened, but just showing you exactly what I just stated.

Nice. Can we see a similar video of this happening on the waist loop as you stated happened in your original post?

Thanks for your work on this. It is appreciated by the community as we all depends on these products for our safety.

J. Thompson wrote: obviously hoping the company would do the right thing?

OK? What is the right thing? Replace one harness? A world wide recall of that harness?

First, better to know what is going on with YOUR gear than wait for the company to tell you.

As I said the track record isn't good, when the repeated answer is, "if it is used right, there is no problem?"

BD's cs response sounded a lot like, "nothing to see here, move along now". Or just drop it off at REI?

In just the last 18 months we've seen 4 or 5 incidents where gear has been faulty, and all of it caught by some poor bloke that didn't get hurt or killed, but thankfully, was able to post it on the Internet first.

BD isn't the first or the last.

"Obviously hoping the company would do the right thing", doesn't help anyone climbing on faulty gear, right NOW. Suggesting anyone wait on the company (any company) to make a personal safety decision for you (like checking/changing your own harness) seems well...rather silly and dangerious if past incidents and the OP is to be believed.

Suggesting in public that the original poster (or anyone) is remiss by not contacting the manufacture first instead of alerting the climbing community first is wrong in my opinion.

We aren't responsible for the R&D or liability issues of the manufactures. I would hope one does feel some small responsibility to those you climb with and our larger community.

It is a mistake imo to think your personal concerns are the same corporate concerns.

JLP,

I don't get what you are saying? The harness is a perfect fit,
with the extra leg loop slack fitting perfectly right beyond the
little catch that holds the extra. Also the waist belt is good.
Meaning look at the padding (not the strap) it comes together
meeting at a perfect point to provide comfort.

The whole thing is pretty weird though, I have the same harness.
Never had that happen, but I do think it is wearing out prematurely.

Maybe I will go back to regular buckles... This is my 1st speed
buckle setup. It makes me rethink things.

while forum posts are obviously subject to people not using gear properly claiming otherwise or other such mistakes

the consequences of defective climbing equipment are extremely serious

public posts will only help reputable companies ID issues quickly, and demonstrate they have the climbers best interest at heat with a quick and thorough action

companies with recalls and take care of their customers i dont worry about too much ... its the companies that sweep stuff under the rug that you need to look out for

better to know something to look out for than being an ostrich with the head in the sand

edit ...

just to note that the leg buckle coming loose thing was mentioned by the AAI in a recent blog post ... they recommended NOT using the outside leg loops for a prussik backup due to this issue ...

alpineinstitute.blogspot.co…

I recently was shocked to find a somewhat major problem with my brand new harness. I bought a harness with "fast-buckle" systems. These systems have been around for five years or so, but are becoming an increasingly popular system on harnesses. The fast-buckle is essentially a system that allows you climb into your harness and tighten it up. You don't need to double it back or anything, once it's been tightened, it's supposedly good.

I've always been concerned that these harnesses might cause people to forget to double themselves back if they use a "normal" harness after using a fast-buckle for a period of time. But such a concern is nowhere near as disturbing as what I found when playing with my new fast-buckle harness.

I discovered that the leg-loop can actually unbuckle itself if you clip your rappel back-up friction-hitch directly into it near the buckle. See the following picture for what not to do with your carabiner on your leg-loop

matt hallman wrote:Ok PEOPLE LISTEN STOP QUESTIONING RN CLIMBER I WAS THE CLIMBER WHO TOOK THE FALL AND BEFORE EVERY CLIMB WE CHECK TO MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS GOOD HE DID NOTHING WRONG THE HARNESS WAS NOT LOOSE!! LETS ME SAY THAT AGAIN THE HARNESS WAS NOT LOOSE AND HE WAS DOUBLE BACKED YES I ALMOST GOT VERY HURT BUT IT WAS NOT HUMAN ERROR IT WAS ALL IN THE HARNESS

Works every time!

Works every time!

RNclimber - thank you for posting the video, but...

What you showed is not what you said happened in your OP.

RNclimber wrote:To verify what happened, I put my harness back on the way it was, and sure enough, I tugged on the belay loop and the waist strap came sliding a few inches.

I am not trying to be mean or accusatory, but in the video you posted you pulled on the leg loop essentially from the buckle itself. This is the point of a speed buckle - if you pull on the buckle itself you can loosen it quickly, which is exactly what I saw happen in your vid. I think this is what JLP was getting at.

To everyone else - the one interesting bit of information I've seen in this entire thread is that the buckles in the photos provided by the OP definitely look like a different design than the ones on my Aspect harness (size medium, fyi). As soon as I get home today I will take a few pics to illustrate this.

Can we take the Made in USA jingoistic ranting to another thread? Stop pretending that American factories are immune to manufacturing problems or product recalls (here's a hint: 3 letters, the first two are C...).