Rescue as an ethical dilemma?
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"Look at the story just this spring at the Red Rock Rendezvous. Where all those people with no self-rescue skills got stuck on the solar slab. Had phones called it in, but rescue couldn't do anything until the weather cleared. " |
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Nick Mardirosian wrote:"Look at the story just this spring at the Red Rock Rendezvous. Where all those people with no self-rescue skills got stuck on the solar slab. Had phones called it in, but rescue couldn't do anything until the weather cleared. " Hey Tom got a link for this? I never heard about it.I was looking for the link this morning, but couldn't find it. It was a guy and his partner talking about how they got stuck behind those old ladies on the solar slab buttress, and then stuck again when the rain started and those same old ladies wouldn't/couldn't simul-rappel, because of comfort levels. There was the girl that one guy gave his jacket to that ended up getting stuck on the wall during the torrent. I also got a similar report by one of the rangers at the BLM the week after the Rendezvous. It might have been in someones trip report. |
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Potential rescue should be part of everyone's calculus. Even Mallory had support climbers when he died on Everest in 1924, they didn't help him then but you take what you can get. Of course everyone should be prepared but to purposefully leave your phone so you can't rely on it? I hope no one is influenced by that advice. |
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TomCaldwell wrote:Stich, didn't your friend have to move when rescue personnel got there? What is the difference in waiting for rescue personnel to get there and expediting the process by getting them to the ground while waiting for a rescue to show up?Believe me, a whole bunch of us tried to move her but she was having none of it. Dislocated shoulders are exquisitely painful sometimes and we had no idea how to properly reduce it, which done wrong would have probably torn her labrum more. Anyway, Rocky Mountain Rescue administered pain meds intravenously and then getting the shoulder back in was simple. After that, we could have rappelled down together no problem, but they were there and gave her a tandem rap off the end of the ledge. So if you can swing it, keeping serious pain meds in your first aid kit is not a bad idea I would say. I've since learned how to reduce a shoulder dislocation. |
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Sending for the cavalry for the equivalent of an aggravated hangnail is moronic, and, sadly, it seems as if no condition is too trivial for someone to dial 911. But the debate should not be shaped by extreme examples of stupidity and cluelessness. Calling for a rescue is, like many things in climbing, a judgement call. If, like many of us, you have some preconceived notion about making such calls, then the your judgement may be compromised, and extra vigilance, introspection, and clear-headedness are called for. |
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rgold wrote:The worst moral or ethical lapse I can think of, far worse than hangnail 911's, is sacrificing a partner's life or long-term health to some abstract concepts of "adventure" and "self-reliance."I agree wholeheartedly, rgold. There are adventures out there that are not contrived where rescue is impossible and the stakes are actually set at the adventure level some seek. Why stack the deck against yourself when it is not necessary? |
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Stich wrote: I agree wholeheartedly, rgold. There are adventures out there that are not contrived where rescue is impossible and the stakes are actually set at the adventure level some seek. Why stack the deck against yourself when it is not necessary?Yeah, don't climb where there is no cell phone reception. You might have to know some rescue skills. "Why stack the deck..." Calculated risk... why do some people free solo, why do people climb where a rescue is near impossible... the list goes on just like all the wild scenarios requiring a rescue like a few of the ones posted here. Nobody wants to take on the actual question from the op. Read the title of the thread or maybe the first post. Get over the cell phone bit. My contention was that it can and has caused access issues. |
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Fair enough, Tom, is your point that needing help affects access or how that help is provided that ends up affecting access? |
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TomCaldwell wrote: I was looking for the link this morning, but couldn't find it. It was a guy and his partner talking about how they got stuck behind those old ladies on the solar slab buttress, and then stuck again when the rain started and those same old ladies wouldn't/couldn't simul-rappel, because of comfort levels. There was the girl that one guy gave his jacket to that ended up getting stuck on the wall during the torrent. I also got a similar report by one of the rangers at the BLM the week after the Rendezvous. It might have been in someones trip report.I read about it on supertopo: supertopo.com/climbers-foru… |
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Tom, with all due respect, I believe I addressed both the op and the title. My remark at the end about cell phones was a consequence of my other remarks but very far from the main point. |
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Here is a specific example of how ethics can affect us all because of a rescue. |
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Here is a real example where a rescue could have caused access issues. This year in Linville Gorge Wilderness, a pair of flat-landers from Florida decided to climb the Daddy 5.6 with probably zero multi-pitch experience. A few pitches up, the leader got out of hearing distance from the belayer and froze. After a few hours of neither person doing anything, the belayer retreated and had to hike all the way out (~2.5 hours) to get help, because there was no cell phone reception. After several more hours the rescue team showed up and gave another experienced climber who just happened to be there a static rope to lead up to the party. The analysis of the incident showed that there were so many simple solutions the leader could have done to get back into hearing distance and even retreat from the entire climb. The rescue team obviously was ill trained and equipped to handle the situation. If one of the rescue personnel were injured, the media would have had a field day. Obviously NSF land would very difficult to shut down, but if this were to happen on a state park like Chimney Rock (which it did), a climbing ban could be enforced. I could tell the Ghost Town story which the state park used a rescue of a hiker to take a jab at climbers in the paper. |
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I wish I were as much of an armchair hardman as Tom. |
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bwalt822 wrote:I wish I were as much of an armchair hardman as Tom.One day. Keep eating your veggies. Thanks for contributing to the discussion. |
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Jim Gloeckler wrote: Yes there is. I had a fracture of my 4th lumbar vertebre and did a short walk out. Doctor's said it was not advised because I could have injured it worse. But I was so embarassed having decked, I thought I'd better suck it up and try. Thanks to Ken Trout and partner who helped carry the gear close to the vehicle!My husband had a similar situation but snowboarding, not climbing. He had fractured five vertebrae, t-4, t-6, t9-11, and snowboarded off the mountain to the medical center himself. Bad part was, since he made his own way down, they would not believe him that the injury was serious. It was only when we went on our own to a real hospital that he received a proper diagnosis. So that's at least two examples where self rescue could have made the injury much worse (though thankfully, it didn't). By the by, if you ever properly screw yourself up, go to Hospital for Special Surgery if you live in the NYC area. They delivered an insane level of care, and hubby is now as good as new. |
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"'I wish I were as much of an armchair hardman as Tom.'" |
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Tom has some very good points, and I do agree that his solution (from what I gather) is that climbers all need to be competent to handle the route. That is a personal decision to nurture that, but as a group encouraging competency through these discussions is also effective I think. |
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Stich wrote:Tom has some very good points, and I do agree that his solution (from what I gather) is that climbers all need to be competent to handle the route. That is a personal decision to nurture that, but as a group encouraging competency through these discussions is also effective I think. But the idea that because accidents happen authorities need to shut down areas to climbing is an issue we don't have a lot of control over. That accidents occur cannot be prevented unless you forbid people to set foot in natural areas. Hikers will fall into these gorges, get stuck in ravines with no exit, and need rescue. Hunters will break legs and be weeks overdue. That authorities find high profile rescues involving climbing incidents and use them as an excuse to selectively ban the activity is the problem. Only through political pressure can we keep our sport from being banned. Time and time again, statistically it has been shown that climbers do not even comprise a sixth of the total rescue budget nationwide, even in areas where the most climbing accidents occur. We already chastise mistakes in our own ranks online, sometimes quite viciously. But do you want to ban noobs from areas? Do you want to ask for climbing certifications? Not that this was suggested, but it does happen in some countries. I remember wanting to climb at a sandstone cliff in Suche Skaley, CZ and the kiosk stated that I needed a certification card to climb there. No thanks.Good post. That about sums it up. Unfortunately my opinion is skewed because of where I do most of my climbing, just like I believe no1's is because he climbs in CO. Climbing in such fiscally conservative states makes that relationship between land manager and climber so important and often fragile. |
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rgold's post is the best post thus far. |
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TomCaldwell wrote:It is funny hearing encouragement for people to make rescue calls from those in the rescue industry. You have a personal interest to support your job, your opinion is biased.Many of us do this job for free, as well as work another job to pay our bills. So whether or not we get a call, it doesn't affect our job. The calls we "like" are the serious ones when a person truly has no other option than to call for help. When we get to use all the skills we've been trained on over and over again. So how does that make our opinion biased when we say people should call for help? If a professional in any industry says "if this happens, you should do this" you should listen to what they have to say. I can tell you story after story about how some stupid little injury that was thought to be nothing (therefore the person never sought medical help), ended up claiming a life because of the delay. With that being said, I completely agree that climbers should know how to self rescue. But lets face it, sometimes stuff just goes wrong. Also, pain can definitely be an emergency situation. Severe pain can be a symptom of something much worse. |