Boy Scout Climbing Instructors needed

From the Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, Section 1, cl. 1

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

Here is a short list of atheists and agnostics who, in my opinion but not the opinion of the BSA, represent wonderful role-models for our youth and exemplify the concept of citizenship in America:

• Woody Allen, film director
• Robert Altman, film director
• Isaac Asimov, author and professor of biochemistry
• Julius Axelrod, biochemist and Nobel Laureate
• Kevin Bacon, actor
• Rodney Brooks, director of MIT's AI lab
• James Cameron, film director (Aliens, The Abyss, T2, Titanic, Avatar)
• Sir Arthur C. Clarke, scientist and author (okay, he's British, but his contributions to society are myriad)
• Jamie Hyneman, Mythbuster
• Bruce Lee, martial arts instructor, actor, director, cultural icon
• Linus Pauling, chemist, twice Nobel Laureate (Chemistry, and Peace)
• Keanu Reeves, actor
• Carl Reiner, actor, director, writer, winner of nine Emmy Awards
• Carl Sagan, astronomer
• John Searle, philospher
• Herbert Simon, social scientist
• Joe Simpson, (British) mountaineer, author of Touching the Void
• Pat Tillman, athlete, U.S. Army Ranger (KIA)
• Alan Turing, (British) mathematician, logician, cryptographer, father of computer science, critical in decrypting the German "Enigma" in WWII
• Kurt Vonnegut, author
• James Watson, biologist, Nobel Laureate (on the structure of DNA)
• Joseph Weber, physicist, instrumental in the development of laser technology
• Steven Weinberg, theoretical physicist, Nobel Laureate
• Joss Whedon, screenwriter (notably, "Buffy" and "Firefly")
• Earl Wild, classical pianist
• Gene Wilder, actor
• Steve Wozniak, computer engineer, cofounder of Apple Computer

I have intentionally omitted females from my list, not out of any disrespect for the many incredible and important women in our society, but only to restrict the discussion to the subject of religion (or lack thereof).

Aaron seems like he's out there volunteering his time helping kids learn about the outdoors & climbing. I didn't see anywhere in his post where he claimed to be the Director of the BSA. Yarp & Marc why don't you express your extreme hatred of the Boy Scouts by writing a letter to the person in charge instead of bashing on Aaron in this thread?
BSA ain't perfect but it's better than your kid being a gangbanger.

Glenn,

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see that Marc and Yarp are attacking Aaron at all. If someone asks for volunteers in association with a particular organization, it is perfectly reasonable for those who find said organization to be offensive to express that and their reasons why.

For example, imagine if I asked for volunteers from this site to help pass out educational literature on the importance of cancer screenings for young women in association with Planned Parenthood. I am not so naive as to think politics and religion would not enter the discussion.

Cheers.

Marc H wrote: Don't you also teach them to be intolerant of homosexuals, through example? Or are you a hypocritical, do-as-we-say-not-as-we-do organization? You can't have it both ways. --Marc

Point taken Bobby, But I guess I read it differently.

bio wrote:Hey retards(I'm not directing that at everyone here)

Nice way to start a post making the point that BSA is not intolerant.

Although I recognize that most members of BSA are merely families looking to be in the outdoors and not heavily interested in the political/ethical side, I will also suggest that there are many other outdoor organizations that introduce kids to nature without the undercurrent of intolerance. So, the families that choose BSA are at the least indifferent to the intolerance and, at worst, supporters of that view.

Your words help prove my point. Thanks.

Evan, I think there are also many families involved in BSA who are merely ignorant of the intolerance. I personally know people involved in Scouting who fully support gay rights and cultural/religious tolerance. I would guess they are involved because it is fun and rewarding.

You all should be ashamed of yourselves. This thread reads like something I would expect on rockclimbing.n00b.

Don't like it? Don't volunteer.

No one here really cares about your personal crusade to bash the BSA. Remember the Homoclimbtastic thread? AKA "The mother of all queer climbing trips" thread? No homophobes, right wing Christians/Jews/Muslims, or Scouts came to rain on their parade and talk about the evils of homosexuality. So why are you doing the same thing here?

Here's a link: mountainproject.com/v/the-m…

Talk about intolerance. Sheesh....

Jon H wrote:You all should be ashamed of yourselves. This thread reads like something I would expect on rockclimbing.n00b. Don't like it? Don't volunteer. No one here really cares about your personal crusade to bash the BSA. Remember the Homoclimbtastic thread? AKA "The mother of all queer climbing trips" thread? No homophobes, right wing Christians/Jews/Muslims, or Scouts came to rain on their parade and talk about the evils of homosexuality. So why are you doing the same thing here? Here's a link: mountainproject.com/v/the-m… Talk about intolerance. Sheesh....

Jon, I think for the most part this thread isn't making it personal and keeping it somewhat cordial (as well as the internet can). Your "don't like it, don't volunteer" argument isn't going to stop people who feel passionately for such things as equality and tolerance to not voice their opinions. I think it is funny you are comparing the intolerance in a mp thread to that preached by BSA.

Yarp,

Please site a reference other then wikipedia for those of us who want to see proof. College has taught me not to trust that site alone. Just curiouse, not bashing my go-to site.....

Thanks!

I appreciate everyone that has contributed to this forum whether you agree with the BSA or not. I wasn't sure what I'd get out of it. At the least I got a good read. To those who see me as stumbling block to civil rights, I'm not. I have a sister and good friends with SSA. I had an Aunt and Uncle (who served in Vietnam and saw good men die and then went home to be spit on and called a baby killer. That man took me in from and abusive father as well as other kids from some pretty hard situations. I have a Black brother, Mexican brother, Thai brother and, a brother with Down Syndrome. I was taught to do good always and to defend those that can't defend themselves at all cost. I served a two year mission to S/E Asia where I feed and held babies with maggots in there wounds as a from of infection control. I feed one young man who was beat brain dead because his father found out he was gay. I knew a man that was electrocuted multiple times because he converted to Christianity from Islam so he could be called insane and be left to live in that condition. I'm not saying that religion is best answer for all, or that all religion is good. If you are happy with out it, good on you. I went on to enlist in the Marine Corps to defend the rights of those who disagree with me and who would rather me be silenced. I love my country and the freedoms we have. My job as a Marine is not to ask why I must die but to be willing to die for all of you if asked. I don't expect you all to understand or support me. To those with different views of life than me, I don't expect help or even a thank you, that's between me and my Father in Heaven. I do appreciate your different views, as they are just as valid to you as mine are to me. I hope that you all are successful with all aspects of your life, esp your latest climbing project. I would gladly swap belays with any of you. I love climbing and good conversation. To those that want to help we can still use your help:) Thanks again for your interest in the form:)
Aaron
To MRS ROBB my Canadian English teacher,
I apologize for my atrocious writing skills.

Its too bad that so many people don't put the same effort into helping individuals as they do bashing them. These days its ok to be offensive, opinionated, and to force your beliefs on others. No one gets left behind so no one has to try anymore...but heaven forbid anyone stand up and say something that everyone else doesn't agree with. Oh wait - the poor guy didnt even represent a stance... he asked for simple help. But instead we start a diatribe about homosexuality.
We can sight Woody Allen - who is a creepo and a pseudo-pedophile - as our Nations Great? Since when? He made some movies so he moves with impunity?!
But hedge on the fact that this guys affiliated with an org that still believes in God and all of a sudden he's the looney?
What has this world come to?
I fought for freedom and I love my country as did this man - its just sad that so many can't just let a person have an opinion that calls them to action without crucifying them as a lunatic.
You want to help kids to rock climb... I think that's great. Keep them off the streets, in good association with role models that have a belief system and are trying to make a difference. I do believe that BOA hasn't killed enough kids to warrant a complete redo of their entire system but I do believe that MODERN practices with MODERN equipment is important.
Ive found that the ones that have the time to ridicule you on here usually aren't the same ones trying to make a difference.

PM me - I may have some assistance for you...Not from me of course...
I dont have enough MP credits to be warranted "experienced" enough.
Now you guys can pick me apart and label my faults - im sure you'll find something. That should take you through today ... I'll get back to this when i'm done with church and Sunday Climbing in the McDowell's.

Cheers,

Some have asked how I can support an organization like the BSA. We have only been associated with scouts for about a year and I was hesitant to get involved with the BSA for the same reasons Marc, Yarp and others have pointed out.

I understand “Every Snowflake in an Avalanche pleads not guilty.” I plead guilty. I am comfortably agnostic, but yet not so self important to call myself an atheist; yet, I am putting my 11 year old in a car on tuesday evening and taking him to a BSA troop meeting so he can tie knots and design a silly Patrol flag. Here is why, and Evan hit the nail on the head first, when he said “I understand that each individual troop is different, and the quality of each troop is largely based on the management and ethics of the troop leaders.”

I have been impressed by the depth of character of the people leading our troop. On an individual level I have only seen tolerance and respect of others. On camping / backpacking trips we always leave no trace and often times end up cleaning up behind others. If I had seen anything else, I would have left with my son in tow.

Is the troop perfect? Is the BSA perfect? Of course not, they are flawed, as is the world my son is growing up in. My highest obligation to my son is to help him grow into an individual that can find happiness in an uncertain world. If I am failing him by getting him into the Boy Scouts, I hope at least he will forgive me when he grows up.

Now I am going to sit this rock down, walk away, and go have fun climbing with my son! I would offer up the suggestion that if the rest of you guys do the same, you would be happier and the world would be infinitesimally better for it.

Defending homophobia and religious intolerance by calling me a hater. Nice!

Idsclimber-I'm glad you've helped out little kids in foreign countries with maggots and know someone who was in vietnam. Those were really nice stories. Apparently I am supposed to owe you a debt of gratitude for volunteering for the Marines even though my personal opinion is that the military as it stands today should be disbanded because it's become a war machine for the wealthiest among us to maintain and increase their all ready staggering wealth. No, I don't understand why anyone would die so a rich man could get richer. You've been lied to all your life and now you are perpetuating the myth of the heroic american, off to save the rest of the world from themselves. Gee, thanks.

What does any of this have to do with the stated homophobic and other discriminatory policies of the organization you represent?

Brother you don't owe me or anyone anything.
But rather it is I, that owe you my apprecation.
Thank you for paying your taxes so that I could serve the country that I love.
I respect your view points, you are most intittled to them. I have personaly never witnessed any discrimination nor have I or will I treat anyone differently.
Semper Fidelis
God Bless
And
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.
Aaron

Yarp wrote:Defending homophobia and religious intolerance by calling me a hater. Nice! Idsclimber-I'm glad you've helped out little kids in foreign countries with maggots and know someone who was in vietnam. Those were really nice stories. Apparently I am supposed to owe you a debt of gratitude for volunteering for the Marines even though my personal opinion is that the military as it stands today should be disbanded because it's become a war machine for the wealthiest among us to maintain and increase their all ready staggering wealth. No, I don't understand why anyone would die so a rich man could get richer. You've been lied to all your life and now you are perpetuating the myth of the heroic american, off to save the rest of the world from themselves. Gee, thanks. What does any of this have to do with the stated homophobic and other discriminatory policies of the organization you represent?

I didn't call you a hater. And I certainly wasn't "defending homophobia and religious intolerance" at all. I was simply pointing out that a guy just came and asked for help and instead of just moving along, you (with some others) took it upon yourselves to hop up on your soapbox and broadcast your (mildly annoying) message of peace and love.

Allow me to relate a short anecdote: A good buddy of mine (and user of MP) doesn't use chalk when he climbs. In fact, he hates it because it gums up the rock, is unsightly, ruins his "climbing experience" (or so he claims), etc. But when there's a thread asking which chalk is best, he's still able to contain his distaste, act like an adult, and not muck up threads where he serves no purpose other than to be a Negative Nancy.

Newsflash: In this thread, you're the Negative Nancy.

Glenn Schuler wrote: Marc why don't you express your extreme hatred of the Boy Scouts by writing a letter to the person in charge instead of bashing on Aaron in this thread?

Extreme hatred? I didn't realize that I came across that way. I thought that I asked fair questions and made fair statements.

FWIW I've worked for the BSA at Mead Wilderness Base in NH.

I don't remember "bashing" Aaron at all. I don't understand why you're so pissed about my comments/questions.

--Marc

Edit: i just discovered the second page to this thread. Holy shit. I didn't mean to get people so stirred up with my comments; I just hoped to get people to understand a little bit about the intolerance the BSA shows toward kids and instructors that identify as homosexuals. Good luck everybody. Sorry for any offense that I caused, but I do stand by my statements and questions.

John-if you don't understand the difference between Chalk and a national organization that encourages and fosters bigotry and hatred then I don't think there's a lot that I can do for you. Thank you so much for your input and for minimizing the seriousness of this issue. If you don't mind moving over I'll bury my head in the sand right next to you.

Jon H wrote:I was simply pointing out that a guy just came and asked for help and instead of just moving along, you (with some others) took it upon yourselves to hop up on your soapbox and broadcast your (mildly annoying) message of peace and love.

You're totally right, "peace and love" are annoying messages to hear.

On second thought, if you don't like it, don't read it. I wonder where I got that idea..

Jon H wrote:Don't like it? Don't volunteer.

Jon H wrote:But when there's a thread asking which chalk is best, he's still able to contain his distaste, act like an adult, and not muck up threads where he serves no purpose other than to be a Negative Nancy.

I guess if you're incapable of seeing any other motivations, other than "mucking up" this thread, there's not much we can do for you.

--Marc

Glenn Schuler wrote:Aaron seems like he's out there volunteering his time helping kids learn about the outdoors & climbing.

I assume Idsclimber is Aaron. I agree it's great that he's doing that. I don't think anyone is bashing him for doing that, at least I'm not trying to.

Glenn Schuler wrote:BSA ain't perfect but it's better than your kid being a gangbanger.

While this is true, I don't agree with the logic. There are elements of the organization that many feel are harmful to society. Pointing out that there are worse things doesn't change that. We don't accept "Yes, your honor, I robbed that liquor store at gunpoint. However, it could have been worse. I could have murdered the cashier." as a valid excuse. Once we accept a particular evil because it is less evil than something else we can follow that logic to some pretty awful conclusions.

Jon H wrote:Remember the Homoclimbtastic thread? AKA "The mother of all queer climbing trips" thread? No homophobes, right wing Christians/Jews/Muslims, or Scouts came to rain on their parade and talk about the evils of homosexuality. So why are you doing the same thing here? Here's a link: mountainproject.com/v/the-m… Talk about intolerance. Sheesh....

I really hope you can see this is a false equivalence. The thread you mention is regarding an event that has no harmful impact on those who do not participate. This thread is about a group that openly discriminates against people because of religious views or sexual orientation, which has harmful effects to society. If I see a bunch of hippies playing hacky-sack I won't try to stop them because it is benign to everyone else if they choose to do it. If I see someone mugging an elderly person I'm going to do something because an activity that is harmful to an innocent victim is taking place. Two different things can warrant two different responses. The two threads in question are fundamentally different.

Jon H wrote:Talk about intolerance. Sheesh....

So I'm intolerant for not tolerating intolerance? Oh dear, I've gone cross-eyed.

I hope Idsclimber and others who volunteer for BSA show this thread to the local troop leadership. If they are the local troop leadership I hope they show it to the next level up. If the BSA drops the discriminatory practices there are a lot of people who will more likely volunteer their time/knowledge. As people have mentioned there are good aspects to the BSA. Many people, myself included, will not help them because we feel that these policies do harm to society. A subset of the people who will not help, myself included again, will take opportunities to put pressure on the organization to bring their policies into the modern world. That can be through telling them what they need to change before I will be willing to help, such as in this forum. It can take many other forms.

In general the people who are saying "if you don't want to volunteer, just go away instead of making a scene" have it wrong. I don't think we're making a scene. If you don't understand why some people don't like the organization then how can you make changes to improve it? When I give comments like the one from yesterday, I'm doing it to help the scouts make changes will improve their public image. Feedback isn't always roses, and sometimes the most helpful feedback can be a jagged little pill to swallow.

After posting that I started reading the news. I know some people downplay how serious a problem homophobia is in America. On Friday the Minnesota House GOP invited a preacher to say a prayer in the house chambers before a session. This guy advocates imprisonment, castration, and hanging of gays. He runs an anti-gay organization called "You can run, but you can't hide." The name of the organization itself is a threat. A state legislature invited this asshole to their chambers to say a prayer to start their work day. It's time for this country to move past this nonsense. 50 years from now this shit will be every bit as sad and embarrassing a part of American history as Jim Crow.

Frankly, all the gay atheist children are better off not being allowed into an organization that has been known to attract and cover up for pedophiles. Seriously. Two places my future kids will never go: Boyscout trips and Catholic churches (not that they'll likely be going to other denomination churches either).

Someone had to say it...