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A drew · · Knoxville, TN · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 856

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Ryan Kelly · · work. · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 2,960
Andy F wrote:I've noticed a bunch of people that give ratings to routes they havent ticked/sent. how is this possible? if you cant even climb it, how can you rate it?
The rating system on here helps to provide feedback (however subjective) on route quality for those using the database. So rating climbs that you have done helps out the community. The tick list is mostly self-serving; not everyone feels a need to list out their sends to bolster their internet curriculum vitae.
Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245

I don't add anything to my tick list on any sight but I do give stars and number grades to climbs sometimes. I think giving other people info about the quality and difficulty of the route is more important than documenting my ascent. It's not like any of us are putting up 5.14+ FA's (well, maybe a FEW MPers are).

Derek M · · VA · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 100

If someone is downgrading non-sends, that is a little weak, but if an 11a has a V5 crux or something, it seems pretty reasonable to upgrade the climb even without sending so that 11a climbers don't end having to bail.

Jeffrey Arthur · · Westminster, CO · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 290
Andy F wrote:how is this possible? if you cant even climb it, how can you rate it?
Anything is possible. There are no official rules on this site about ticking something first and putting your personal suggested grade second. This site needs to come to the realization that not everyone shares your personal value system and ethics when it comes to all things climbing.
Ben Cassedy · · Denver, CO · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 315
mission wrote:If someone is downgrading non-sends, that is a little weak, but if an 11a has a V5 crux or something, it seems pretty reasonable to upgrade the climb even without sending so that 11a climbers don't end having to bail.
Exactly. Agree 100%
Greg Barnes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 2,060
Andy F wrote:I've noticed a bunch of people that give ratings to routes they havent ticked/sent. how is this possible?
It's very easy - if you want to comment on the rating but you can't be bothered to enter your "tick" or "send" or whatever.

To be honest, I just now had to go look up how people even enter a "tick" or "send".
Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241

Before the strictly starred routes people go on and cash in the internet climbing carbon credits they've earned, I'd posit that tick lists are highly useful to other climbers.

I want to know who is saying what since climbers below, at, and above a certain grade are going to have wildly different experiences. I don't really want to know that 5.13d trad climber chick found my 5.9 prodge light. That information just wounds me in a deep place I can't talk about. No, I want to know what the other 5.9 prodging climber thought about the 5.6 runout section, and whether or not it made him pinch a loaf. And, possibly, how big a loaf it was. A tick list is one way of providing the crucial context to comments that each of these climbers makes. People who obsessively star also create a de facto internet climbing resume. Somebody who makes a lot of grade suggestions does the same to some extent. And so on.... Thank you :).

Additionally, a combination of tick lists, grade suggestions, and stars on a route lets me know that, hey, this route gets a bit of traffic, maybe it's one to check out. Same with all the additional tidbits like photos, further route beta, and user comments. It's awesome that we don't just have to take that one asshole guidebook author's opinion as fact anymore, we now have a bunch of other slanderizing douchebag internet napoleon mini-guidebook authors' opinions too. Democracy at work!

So, yeah, quit smelling your own farts star people, I'm really sick of your elitism. Anyway, I really do expect my estimable tick list will bolster my internet image as a moderate climber, rocketing me ever upwards on my fantastical voyage of mediocrity.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

Zeke, I give your post 2.5 stars

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241
Mark Nelson wrote:Zeke, I give your post 2.5 stars
I just ticked this comment. I found it light even for a warmup.
Bobby Hanson · · Spokane, WA · Joined Oct 2001 · Points: 1,230

Andy F, I just checked out your profile page...

You have ticked 60 routes and only given stars for 59 routes. That means there is at least one route that you ticked but did not give a star rating for. What the hell?!?

Moreover, you only gave difficulty ratings for 11 routes!?! How is it possible for you to know how good a route is if you don't know how hard it is?

I think it should be a rule in rock climbing that if you climb a route--even one you've done previously--you MUST find an internet connection and give it a TICK, a STAR RATING, and a YDS RATING on mountainproject.com within 24 hours!

Ryan Kelly · · work. · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 2,960
Bobby Hanson wrote:Andy F, I just checked out your profile page... You have ticked 60 routes and only given stars for 59 routes. That means there is at least one route that you ticked but did not give a star rating for. What the hell?!? I think it should be a rule in rock climbing that if you climb a route--even one you've done previously--you MUST find an internet connection and give it both a TICK and a STAR RATING on mountainproject.com
I wasn't going to say anything, but if the witch hunt is starting, I want in. Jarthur has starred 410 routes but only ticked 404. He's a witch! BURN HIM!
J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
Zeke wrote: A tick list is one way of providing the crucial context to comments that each of these climbers makes.
That is indeed the way I view grades/stars. I actually have a few climbers on MP that I know give routes a pretty fair shake as far as grades and I will generally give their opinion the weight of my judgement even if it goes against the majority of the other elitist fart sniffers as Zeke so eloquently calls them. I find that it is usually pretty easy to sniff out which folks know what they are talking about and which ones don't because if you have climbed a fair number of routes over the years, you can compare what you think to what said climber gave for a grade.

Zeke mentions that he doesn't want to know what the 13d trad girl thinks about a 5.9, but I actually disagree with this for a couple of reasons. One, if you can climb 13d, then you probably have climbed enough 11a's to know what they feel like. Sure, there are plenty of hard climbers who are dickish sandbaggers, but there are also some hard climbers out there who seem to be able to avoid the ego trap of downgrading all 5.12a's to 11b/c. The second reason I look to the opinion of the 13d, egoless trad girl, is that I regularly see downgrading of route grades done by individuals who barely climb the grade. I'm not trying to be a dick, but I find it hard to believe that someone who has only climbed three 5.11d's is well qualified to downgrade each of those three routes to 11b. In other words, the combination of experience, ability to climb harder than the grade, and lack of ego combine to produce a person whose opinion I will take seriously....you can figure most of this stuff out by reading a person's posts and viewing some of their grade opinions.

Personally, I only give a grade to a climb if I feel that I am qualified to do so. For example, if I get on a route that is at the limit of what I can possibly climb, and I have only been on say, 3 routes of that grade or higher, then I don't give it a grade. I may give it a star rating because the climbing was amazing, but I don't give it a grade. I think if more people on MP were a bit more conservative with the grades they posted on, then users wouldn't have to do all this detective work while they were supposed to be filling out their TPS reports at work.
Kid Icarus · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 15
Andy F wrote:clarification: I didnt say anything about stars.. just grades.. I still think you cant suggest a new grade for a route that you cant climb clean. Also, I keep a tick list so I remember the funnest most classic climbs Ive done.
You can't remember the funnest and most classic climbs you've done? That sucks.
Bapgar 1 · · Out of the Loop · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 90

+1 for Albers.
Ratings are a somewhat subjective can of worms that I try to stay out of. I'll post stars because I figure if a route gets a high star count from a bunch of different people it's got to be a worthwhile line that I'd like to get on.
The next most useful thing for me is seeing what kinds of opinions climbers weigh in with regarding a routes seriousness.

Jeffrey Arthur · · Westminster, CO · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 290
Ryan Kelly wrote: I wasn't going to say anything, but if the witch hunt is starting, I want in. Jarthur has starred 410 routes but only ticked 404. He's a witch! BURN HIM!
Dude have you not seen my profile picture?

Coincidentally my grandmother was one of the most famous witches in Eastern North Carolina. So historically my lineage is quite used to and prepared for your witch hunt. Bring it!
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

its the intrawebs ... anyone can do what they want

IMO ... you should send a route before "rating" it ... sure you can do all the moves on top rope bit by bit ... but as we all know leading is a whole different head game

Jeremy K · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 0
George Perkins wrote:If someone does all the moves, hangdogging or toproping, they probably have a general idea of a climb's difficulty and quality, despite not "sending".
I find people who do one TR/hangdog "burn" on a climb are usually way off on the grade, especially if they do all the moves. "I did all the moves, it can't be that hard!"
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

something that a couple folks have mentioned but i don't necessarily agree with is that a barely 11d climber shouldn't be able to downgrade an 11b climb. if 11b is pretty hard for somebody, and they go out and climb a "light" 11b with ease, i would think it would kind of support the notion that the "light" 11b is indeed more like 10c.

a good example of this is shelf road. the routes put up there in the last decade or so are pretty light. one route developer (i won't mention rico's name...) explained that they are "consensus grades". what he failed to realize is that the folks giving him the consensus had basically been climbing for a year or two in the gym, on big holds. pretty different than shelf's crimping and pockets.

another thing i hear is "it's 5.11 if you don't know how to crack climb...". umm, no it's still 5.8, you just don't know how to crack climb.

i think it takes a lot of climbing, on different types of rock, at different areas, different styles before a person has a good calibration of how hard a route is in the full climbing context. there are a handful of folks on MP that i think have a pretty good assessment of difficulty, quality of climbing, quality of protection, etc. i tend to look at how they assessed a route if i want a good indication of what the route is all about.

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241
Mike McHugh wrote: You, sir, are my new hero. I doff my man-pris to thee.
You have chosen wisely. Now put your damn knickers back on!
Tom Rangitsch · · Lander, Wy · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 1,699
J. Albers wrote: if you can climb 13d, then you probably have climbed enough 11a's to know what they feel like. Sure, there are plenty of hard climbers who are dickish sandbaggers, but there are also some hard climbers out there who seem to be able to avoid the ego trap of downgrading all 5.12a's to 11b/c.
Maybe this is just an aside, but I don't think everyone who climbs hard is being a dickish sandbagger. I think that when you are climbing something 4 or 5 grades lower than your ability level, it is difficult to tell how hard it is. I remember having a discussion with someone about Ed's Crack at Vedauwoo and whether it was 5.6+ or 5.7-. My response was "I don't f**kin' know." Maybe I was being a dick, but I honestly wasn't sandbagging. I think its the same for people of any ability level.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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