A hard ethical decision we need input

Last week, some local climbers -- one of whom I know -- attempted Mt. Hayes in the eastern Alaska Range. He and his partner got lost on the route in bad weather and activated their locator beacon from a snow cave they dug quite close to their lower camp. Neither climber was hurt, hypothermic, or starving.

A very serious rescue operation began, involving C-130 aircraft and an entire fleet of helicopters. They were airlifted home and left their base camp and high camp kits on the mountain. They made no arrangements of their own to have their gear returned. By the time the chopper could land on the ridge, they probably could have found their high camp and descended on their own.

My partner and I just got back from our previously scheduled climb on the same route and found both their base camp and high camps. We too had a horrendous storm, almost summited, then descended with dangerously heavy packs carrying our kit plus everything they left up high. We then paid an air taxi to remove everything from the glacier below, and now have to drive 300 miles to get it from a remote airstrip.

The question; do we booty everything? Do we compromise? We paid a lot of dues (and money) getting this stuff down and they made no attempts to do it on their own. We're talking about a lot of gear, but it is probably worth 1/100th of what their rescue cost taxpayers. I need advice. We endured quite the epic dealing with this mess, and feel most climbers would consider this all legitimate booty. You can read the glamorized story here:

bellinghamherald.com/2011/0…

Damn, really good on ya for hauling all of that stuff down. I'd say it's yours to keep! If he wasn't your friend, it'd be a more clear cut answer, you found stuff in the wilderness, that settles it. But now, say you go climbing/cragging together or something like that, you're using his gear that he left, could get awkward. You've got the upper hand here, from what I've read you guys were a bit more responsible and they bit off more than they could chew.

Although I've never been involved in serious mountaineering, my vote would be that you keep the gear that you need, sell back to them or others what gear you do not need until you get back all of the extra money spent cleaning up after them so to speak. After that, I guess you could give the rest back to them after letting them know what a nice favor you did for them, and other climbers who will do the route in the future. Good job on the mountain and kudos for asking.

I'd say you have the right to take it all, but it might not be RIGHT to take it all.

On one hand, it might be in everyone's best interest to make their decisions sting a bit, but, on the other, I'm not sure that I like the whole pirate booty aspect. On a lesser scale, I've returned a few bail anchors to people who got in over their head. I'd appreciate the same if it happened to me.

In your shoes, I'd probably base my actions on the other people's actions and attitudes. It sounds like they were in over their head and caused a lot of undue risk and exspense to other people. If they didn't show an appreciation of the gravity of their actions, they wouldn't see anything back.

At the very least, they'd be paying any and all costs associated with the recovery (and I just make them pay for all your transport too)

I am not sure I see the ethical issue. It's their stuff. You were good enough to bring it down, but it's not yours. 

My opinion is that they bailed and left it for dead so to speak. Unless they asked you to go get it back for them you're certainly entitled to do with it what you will. I like the idea of selling stuff to cover the expenses that you incurred retrieving it.

If I left gear on a route because I had to bail, I would be doing so with the intention that I would probably never get it back. If you read my trip report to the Wind River Range, a guy actually posted that he removed some gear that I left when we had to bail off the East Face. As far as I'm concerned it's his. I left it, and he took the effort to stop and retrieve it.

You did the right thing in bring it down whether you anticipated keeping it or not. But seriously? You want to keep it? Only one person on the thread so far hit the right answer on the head thus far. It's not your stuff so give it back. Especially since you know the guy! It's not like it's random gear and you have to search for the owner!

You obviously don't need the gear since you were on the same route. I don't understand how you can consider keeping the gear. This saddens me that people think they have the RIGHT to keep stuff that doesn't belong to them (and you even know who owns it in the fist place!).

Let me give another example and see if this makes any more sense...

So I found my buddies wallet the other day. It had about $3k in it. He had an emergency and had to leave quickly and his wallet was left behind. He would have liked to take the wallet with him but at the time it wasn't his top priority. Should I keep his wallet? Or take a few bills out of it as a finders fee?

there locals to you and you know one of them. You incurred actual out of pocket costs related to retrieving the gear.

Seems like you should be able to negotiate some way for them to get back at least some if not most of the gear. Sure, you could just say "finders keepers" but i'm not sure thats really the "right" thing to do in this case.

Good luck, hope you can work something out that doesn't leave people angry.

There's a difference between your friend forgetting his wallet at your place and a group abandoning their gear.

Rescue situations usually negate the booty rules, especially when you know who owns the stuff. I'd say the right solution is to return it and request they cover your extra costs. The mad karma pooints will outweigh the booty bucks.

To me there is no ethical debate. In Arizona they would be charged for the rescue because they were not prepared for a reasonably possible situation. If you want to give it back, make them pay for your effeorts to retrieve, the air taxi and the drive or they deserve nothimg. Giving them the gear would be like telling them they know what they are doing and they should attempt the route again. You might save thier lives by keeping the gear.

I would explain to the owners of the gear all expense, trouble and danger you incurred in bringing there abandoned gear back. If they make an unsolicited offer to fully reimburse you then give them there stuff back. If they don't, they're A-holes anyway and you should keep it.

I'm not going to read more than the original post before saying that an open internet forum is probably the very last place I'd look for input on a tough ethical choice.

Flip the situation. Say you had to activate your beacon and get bailed out (not for injury purposes) and somebody you knew went up there a bit later and came back with all your gear. Also assume those other folks incurred some costs in bringing that gear back. If it was me in that case, I'd offer to cover the extraction costs for the gear to get it back, and I'd likely take the chaps that got it for me out for a Hangover type weekend. I surely wouldn't want them to just booty the gear, since we know each other, but I also wouldn't want them just to hand it over to me like they were my maid cleaning up my crap.

I'd have to agree with Jimbo in that, if they don't offer to reimburse you for the cost you incurred for bringing their trash out, rescue or not, then they are a-holes. The only exception being if they'd already made plans to go back there themselves to retrieve the kit or have another go at the route.

Sounds like you want to keep the gear, but remember: getting people to agree with your point of view on MP.com doesn't make you any more right.

I'd say contact the party whose gear you now have, and tell them about the energy and cost you incurred while retrieving their gear, and ask them if they'd like to reimburse you somehow for your efforts. If they do not want to 'get you back' for your time and effort, then be up front and tell them you're keeping the gear as compensation.

At least when you see these people again, they know you were forthright and honest.

I'm with Erik...put yourself in their shoes! I bet you'd be stoked if your gear was returned to you after an epic. They'll no doubt have learned a lesson and are unlikely to make the same mistake, but who knows?

Also, you took it upon yourselves to rescue their gear. Yes, it shouldn't just have been left up there. But once you decided to retrieve it, you automatically incur the responsibility. So while you definately "earned" the booty, IMO, the better man would get it back to the owners.

This is still a fresh incident and you are no doubt fired up about it right now...what about in 3 years; will you feel differently about whatever decision you decide to make about the booty?

No doubt you guys did the right thing. If they were willing to reimburse you the cost of their gear retrival you should give it back. Otherwise I think the gear should be yours.

I've done a few of these types of trips...and seen gear caches abandoned for whatever reason.

First, good on ya for bringing the stuff down. Its trash. Thanks!

I guess I'd make an attempt to get it back to the climbers, with a request to help defray any expenses you incurred.

Can't imagine bootying another climber's gear and using and/or selling it. Unless I knew for sure it was abandoned.

On a number of trips we've brought down other climbers' stuff. Always make a strong attempt at getting it back to them.

Weird deal. I dunno. Maybe they should carpool with you and go help get their and your stuff? Have you contacted them? Since you still need to pick the stuff up, you'll have some idea of how interested they are in getting their gear back.

I don't see it as "legit booty" until you've cleared the air with the climbers. They are probably easy to talk to, as, their names are in the article referenced.

Be different if their stuff was months or years old. But, its fresh. I say talk to them.

The term salvage comes to mind in this situation. What were they going to do if you hadn't picked up all their shit for them? I would charge them a fee, there really is no reason that you should not be reimbursed for your effort as well as the financial cost of the salvage operation.

You don't want to keep their stuff for a few reasons. First, giving the stuff back will prevent any future animosity in the community even if you did do the right thing by bringing that garbage down. Second, their shit is used, charge them a substantial fee (I'm thinking somewhere in the hundred dollars per mile walked (or thousand feet vertical descended) on top of the financial cost to drive to get it all, this will give you enough for a nice new expedition tent or some new bags or something real nice like for yourself for all the hard work. I wouldn't charge them more then half what it would cost to replace all the stuff.

My feeling is that the "rules" we follow on this are quite different for a sport climb or cragging route, versus a major alpine route. In a perfect world you give it back, and they come back to the Alaska Range when they are capable of getting themselves out of such a mess.

And for what its worth, I always give it back if i know who's it is.

If you have to ask...