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Skipping draws indoors

Wally · · Denver · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 0

Interesting comments. I lean against popular opinion on this. I climb indoors to train for outside climbing, both physically and, to a lesser extent, mentally. Clipping bolts every four feet doesn't help train the mental state of being able to pull hard moves when your last piece is, god forbid, below your waist. I routinely skip clips in the gym for this primary reason. Too many of us are afraid to fall on lead, or need top ropes to try hard routes. Gyms are softening us up - albeit the physical training is awesome.

Climb on. Wally

DFrench · · Cape Ann · Joined Apr 2007 · Points: 465

Sorry, Wally, but I think the idea of mental training for run-out climbing in the gym is laughable and selfish.

I would be compelled to confront you for the sake of others' safety if I saw you intentionally skipping clips on a 40 foot indoor lead wall.

Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759

^ His belayer sometimes confronts him.
'Go ahead and skip one more, Wally, and I'm taking you off belay.'
:0)

wlashgraham · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 0

I had this same attitude. Skipping clips was fine, good training to keep your head on outside ect. Until last friday. My belayer was about 50-60 pounds lighter than me, was going for the fourth clip, hold spun, off with clipping slack out (I had cliped the third bolt). I hit the deck, but was basically stoped by the time I hit. No more skipped clips here.

Patrick Vernon · · Grand Junction, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 965

I think a good rule of thumb in climbing is that you always fall further than you think you will. Never underestimate rope stretch, and slack that already exists in the system, pulling the belayer up, knot tightening, etc.. What mathematically works out to be a twenty foot fall is usually thirty, and I don't think this case is an exception, especially if the finishing jug spins while you have the slack out to clip the anchor. I think skipping bolts is fine if you are way off the ground or deck, but that close to the ground (25 feet), treat it like soloing if you are going to do it... don't even think of falling.

-Patrick

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
mass wrote:Today while lead belaying at the gym we had, in my opinion, a well meant but odd exchange with some guys who were bouldering nearby. Here's the setup: ~25ft wall, decently overhanging route with 3 clips to the anchor. The climber had clipped into the first draw at around 14ft and the second draw at around 19ft. He skipped the third draw at approx. 22ft and clipped into the anchor at ~25ft. After the second clip I kept the climber on a very cautious belay with around 2-3ft of slack payed out. After lowering the climber one of the boulderers came over to us and mentioned that we had skipped a clip - which was fine because, well, we had; intentionally. He also hinted that skipping that clip put a lead fall in deck territory or very close to it. I politely said that I thought the climber was within his limits and doubted that a lead fall would result in decking...but it's been bothering me - was I wrong on the latter point? Useless aside: We were on this route after the same group, who had been watching us lead climb a very overhanging route to our high point two draws up ~10ft from the top, suggested it to us as having less big moves and being easier. It's worth mentioning that we had lead this route before. Were these guys right? Were we recklessly toying with the deck and leading poorly or were they being a little too helpful? Anyone else guilty of skipping a draw indoors? Thanks.
Sounds like you would have had to mess up pretty bad for the climber to hit the ground. I probably skipped 4 or 5 bolts in the gym this morning. I nearly always skip the first one, and a lot of times the last one as well... but our walls are about 50 feet tall.

Not listening to people is always dumb (even if they are boulderers). There is no reason to dismiss someone's opinion but you have to remember that it's ONLY an opinion. Hear what they have to say, evaluate it, add it to your own thoughts and move on.
Leo Paik · · Westminster, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 22,800

The idea of skipping clips is fine if you are willing to accept the consequence of a spinning hold or being short roped by an inattentive belayer being something like a sprained ankle, a broken leg, never being able to feel or move below the waist, or flattening that inattentive passing climber or child on the ground who just happens to be between you and the ground as your fall is softened as you barely touch down. Skipping clips is better for the outdoors.

Phillip Tearse · · Denver, CO · Joined May 2008 · Points: 80

I'd say its more the very real eventuality of a hold spinning or breaking on you. Yeah, the first clip in a gym is usually pretty silly, but you never know when the spinners will strike. Just think of clipping those skippable clips as extra training, thats why we're in the gym anyways right?

Jim Gloeckler · · Denver, Colo. · Joined Jul 2004 · Points: 25

Skipping clips at the gym should not be allowed. It's the gym's liability at stake for what has kinda become just macho b.s. Wow....he/she skipped the first clip....they must be such a great climber. No, they are just taking some of the difficulty out of the lead at the gym's expense. I have yet to see anyone pay for it, but when I do, it will take all I have not to go laugh in their face for showing off when they shouldn't have. Show off outside where it's all on you.

Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759

Jim,
Not every skipped bolt is a lonely, abandoned victim of machismo.
An unexpected catch on the first bolt might hurt me and my belayer worse than the padded floor. Good chance of a rope burn, and in some cases a hard catch from that height will send your ankles straight into that junction of the floor and wall at an unkind angle.
Granted, I yell at Wally for climbing way high without clipping anything. I also alert the bystanders so they can clear out. I think the risk to bystanders is being overblown. The mental/fear training isn't BS if the consequences are real and understood by the climber. Whether or not it's worth it, well that's his choice - and the gym has a signed liability waiver.
The last bolt has a different use: belayer training. Catch a bunch of long whippers and your timing gets better so your catches are smoother and easier on the gear when the top piece is a purple TCU instead of a bolt. That is definitely a worthwhile practice and not just machismo. (It's also fun.)

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

As a gym manager speaking YOU MUST ALWAYS CLIP ALL BOLTS! I don't care how many pitches you've climbed. It is ALWAYS safest to clip all bolts. I know because I run a climbing gym and I've seen it all. Some rope burn and smashing into your belayor is ALWAYS better than the consequences of hitting the deck.

The gym is no place to train your mental muscle. Besides that you are setting a bad example for the nubes. You can argue all you want about how in some cases skipping a bolt is better but that doesn't really matter because you have no authority to make that decision in a climbing gym.

A "no skipping bolts" policy is cut and dry and simple and that's how climbing gyms need it to be to satisfy their insurance companies.

Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265

Wow, the shit that some people get their panties in a bunch over is amazing to me.

--Marc

Wally · · Denver · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 0

Marc - yeah, spot on.

Climb On, friends. Wally

Crag Dweller · · New York, NY · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125

you're at the gym. people are walking around and, sometimes, under climbers. if you skip a clip, you may fall on someone. you could kill that person.

should people pay attention to climbers above them? of course. is a court of law going to dismiss a wrongful death suit against you because the person you fell on didn't look up? probably not.

and, perhaps more importantly, are you going to feel any less guilty about having killed someone because that person didn't look up when you could've prevented the death by clipping the 'draw in the first place?

besides, you're at the gym. why skip a clip? you're not impressing anyone by skipping clips. and, you're not improving your mental strength by skipping a clip that you've calculated to be safe.

Stonyman Killough · · Alabama · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 5,785

I say don't skip, since most gym sport routes are short. Climb smart.

rcguy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 0

Simple answer. Skipping clips on purpose will and should get you bounced from any respectable climbing gym. Cavalier attitudes get you nowhere in this game. If you're so tough, skip protection all day long outside if you want. Don't put a gym employee in the postion of pulling your belay card.

Evan Sanders · · Westminster, CO · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 140
Erik W wrote:Another thing to consider is that while your partner might not deck, could they fall far enough to impact somebody walking underneath the route? An 80kg falling climber dropping onto a 6'4" guy's head is not pretty. So I'd say there's a 'hard deck' to think about as well (Top Gun, can you hear it?) of say 7ft if the route is overhanging. I bring this up because I've seen it happen, a guy having skipped a clip, pops, slack in the system, belayer jumps to lessen the impact (show off) and a guy walking underneath got kicked in the head. Wasn't too bad, but an additional 2ft in the fall and it would have been the climbers ass that impacted the guy first and that could wind up as a broken neck. Anyway, just wanted to put that out there.
If someone is dumb enough to walk under a climber that's leading, especially on a 25 ft wall, they deserve to get kicked in the head.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Beginning Climbers
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