SOUTHERN ARIZONA CLIMBING ETIQUETTE - XXX - January-------Subtracting bolts (Chop Chop)

Dan,
After the flame war started we did take the issue off MP to an extensive email list.

Scott never responded to anything said on MP nor did he ever respond to any comments on the email list. Let me repeat Scott never responded to anything, anywhere throughout the debate. We're all still waiting.......

I also think you must have eyes better than any eagle if you can see the cable or the chains draws from the road going into the Fortress.

I don't brush off chiseling on Mt. Lemmon just ask Jbak.

The murder analogy obvious went over your head. The point is the perpetrator of the chiseling shouldn't get to decide when and what happens as a result of his actions any more than a murder should be able to decide his ultimate sentence.

The fact that Scott as a long established history of hypocrisy and obfuscation was also a contributing factor in our decision to not let him dictate the end result of his actions. This and the fact that, in spite of the fantasies of a few Scott supporters, the overwelming consensus was to chop.

We have been accused of having a vendetta against Scotty. Before we we discovered his 30 chipped holds, (Yes, Dan, we were up there filling them, not you, and there were 30, we counted them.) had I or Geir ever chopped any other bolts that Scott placed or even threatened to chop any of his bolts. No, the vendetta argument is BS.

I would like to point out that the only reason we had to undertake a chop of "epic proportions" is because Scott decided to do a chisel of "epic proportions". Chisel came first! Chop came second. Without the first the second never would have had to happened.

Do try to remember that people.

The other argument some have started is that some routes on Mt. Lemmon have chipped holds. The fact that they haven't been chopped by me or others is a too obvious smoke screen to deflect attention away from Scott and somehow justify his decision to do what he did on the proudest piece of stone in the Stonghold.

Like it or not the Stronghold is not Mt. Lemmon. There are established traditions for both.
The amount of chipped holds on various hard lines on Mt. Lemmon would astound most people. The same cannot, and hopefully will not, ever be said about the Stronghold.

Dan Cohen wrote:Does that include Mount Lemmon as well as Cochise Stronghold? Do you think it is indisputably worse to chisel on Cochise Stronghold than Mount Lemmon? If so, do you think you made an error in judgment by chopping multiple pitches of natural climbing on Rockfellow Dome instead of fixing the only offensive thing about the route (the chiseled holds)? What is your take on the access issues I brought up regarding the chiseled holds on Rockfellow Dome compared to the Orifice Wall?

Hey Dan,

I do not at all think it was a mistake to chop that route.

I don't like chiseling anywhere, Cochise or Lemmon. Personally I feel much more strongly about the large domes in Cochise than short faces on Lemmon, so chiseling in Cochise is a bigger concern for me than elsewhere. If you or anyone else feels compelled to do something about the chiseled routes on Lemmon, have at it.

I don't really think that chain draws should be considered alongside chiseling. With respect to chain draws specifically, I am ambivalent. In general it seems that they have gained pretty wide acceptance through the country. During the season that the Orifice is open, I think painted chain draws are less visible than brightly colored quick draws hanging on projects. (And I can say from experience that virtually all of the routes are being actively projected through the season). Should the last group(s) present in the fall take them down for the season and stow them at the base of the cliff? I don't know the answer to that. Start a thread and see what people think of it.

Regards,
Geir

Just for the record almost every route at Miligrosa has a chain on it. On top of that non climbers often hike through there with bolts placed at eye level or just above. Should we discuss this as an access issue Dan?

Hitchcock pinnacle? all the chains that can be seen from the top of the overlooks and at the end of the Beaver Wall area where folks can look down at the chains on N. Fin.

Now I realize these are chains at the anchors not chain draws on the bolts. But hey it is a large piece of chain and it is a lot closer to the road than the Orifice. Do you think this could be an access issue Dan?

These areas are much closer to the road and easily accessed by non climbers. What about New Wave wall, Hunchback, Green Slabs etc.

Your bringing up the Orifice seems like another attempt to divert attention from Mr. Ayers indiscretions in the Stronghold instead of a ligitimate concern about access.

Also would like to point out as Jimbo did that due to the concerns of a number of Scott's friends we took the chiseling issue off of MP.com. You profess that you are concerned about access and yet you bring it up online despite having said that it is a bad idea to do so.

"A. Chiseled holds on a backcountry dome, hundreds of feet off of the ground, which are invisible to said land manager and hikers, which would never gain the attention of the land manager unless the climbing community were to shoot itself in the foot by publicly bickering about the chiseled holds."

So Dan do you or don't you think bringing up this stuff online is a bad idea?

The Forest Service makes money off our hangers and chains... It's a fee area. And they advertise climbing on their website. They're rippin me off I tell ya...

jbak wrote:The Forest Service makes money off our hangers and chains... It's a fee area. And they advertise climbing on their website. They're rippin me off I tell ya...

Yep they all work for the same batch of crooks in DC. But at least they came up with a Multi-Agency pass so you don't keep getting charged for every little FS district. Just my .02

Why didn't you guys just fill in the holds and leave the bolts? It could have made a great project for you or someone else to solve.

I'm in the process of writing a thorough response.

Jimbo and Geir, in the mean time, maybe you guys can respond to the recent posts by Toprope Princess, pseudalpine, and TDog. You can't accuse them of being proxies for Scott. They have some legitimate points that if your cause is truly so noble, you should be able to answer (read: not evade the question) with ease.

No, why didn't you Top Rope Princess or, Pseudalpine, or TDog get off your asses and jug climb up there to fill the chisels, if your so upset by the way we handled the situation?

Better yet, the holds are filled now, so why don't one of you go up and re-bolt the thing. I'm sure with your years of experience doing new routes you will do a great job.

Be sure to post a funny photo when you're done.

By the way, Dan , Geir and I never professed we were being noble. What we were is two guys that actually did something as opposed to sitting at a key board and bitching.

Jimbo wrote:No, why didn't you Top Rope Princess or, Pseudalpine, or TDog get off your asses and jug climb up there to fill the chisels, if your so upset by the way we handled the situation?

Jimbo, that doesn't even make sense. It's actually impossible for me, Toprope Princess, pseudalpine or TDog to go back in time and prevent you from handling the situation so poorly.

You can't handle dissent. Your response to simple questions is first, to ignore them, then when pressed, to deny anyone's right to question you. If you had any integrity you would be embarrassed.

Where are all your voters to defend how you guys handled the chopping? It's only you, Geir and Eric. It seems they all your voters fair-weather friends. Then again, according to your logic that anyone who didn't fill the chiseled holds, in addition to chopping multiple natural pitches, shouldn't have a voice.

Jimbo wrote:Better yet, the holds are filled now, so why don't one of you go up and re-bolt the thing.

So you wouldn't have a problem with re-bolting it? It appears you are admitting the offending part of the route was not the bolts, so why did you chop the bolts in the first place? The chopping has 'personal vendetta' written all over it. It's painfully obvious.

Jimbo wrote:I'm sure with your years of experience doing new routes you will do a great job.

Nice, Jimbo. Another in a long list of inflammatory comments with no purpose other than to insult. You should be proud.

Jimbo wrote:By the way, Dan , Geir and I never professed we were being noble.What we were is two guys that actually did something as opposed to sitting at a key board and bitching.

This paragraph contradicts itself. The clear implication of your comparison of "actually did something" as opposed to "sitting at a key board and bitching" is that you think you were being noble!

I don't know if you get this or not, Jimbo. In principle, no one has any problem with filling in the chiseled holds. Though as TDog said, we want to see before and after pitctures of the 'restoration.' The point is that you guys couldn't separate your dislike for Scott and chopped the route because you wanted to punish him.

Instead of getting sidetracked with Jimbo further embarassing himself and southern Arizona, any time I have to do this will be spent responding to the questions above. Please be patient.

Ditto Jim.

We have quite a few "before" photos that we didn't post up on MP. I didn't (and don't have plans to) without good reason.

We don't have "after" photos because we were too busy swinging around in cold, windy conditions 600' off the deck with power tools and heavy gear. Anyone who wants them can climb up there via another route, rap, and take the photos themselves.

Dan, I will choose to answer what I want. Anyone complaining that didn't bother to contribute to the discussion months ago won't be getting much response from me. That includes you and all of the anonymous posters on this thread. We discussed this matter at great length (including the option of just filling the holds) and allowed anyone to join that wanted to be involved.

An FYI for those that don't have all of the information on this issue. Jimbo and Geir did not act alone. This was discussed for weeks among a very large group and a consensus was reached.

It was a simple question. I wasn't trying to derail anyone's logic...just trying to understand the thinking behind the chop. I haven't been on that particular route, but I have climbed in the area. I'm not sure who the "arm chair" climbers are, or what even necessitated such a remark.

Erik, another well thought out post as usual. And although I don't mind being mentioned (indirectly for sure) in these posts, I don't think there are any chipped holds at the Helmet. Reinforcement aplenty, yes.

Eric D wrote:An FYI for those that don't have all of the information on this issue. Jimbo and Geir did not act alone. This was discussed for weeks among a very large group and a consensus was reached.

It was discussed for about 5 days over Thanksgiving weekend among maybe 10 people. Those that thought it shouldn't be chopped then got excluded from the discussion.

Dan Cohen wrote: Where are all your voters to defend how you guys handled the chopping?

They are out climbing. Come on now. You have said that this should not be openly discussed on here but yet you are still pushing the issue. What is done is done. Should the route have been chiseled? NO. Did people take action? Yes.

If your panties are all in a bunch, Dan or whom ever, then go back and re-chisel it. I don't think anybody, with the exception of a few, would even consider re-chiseling it, since it is such a frowned upon practice. If you want the route to be put back, grab your drill and install some bolts. Just leave the chisel at home.

Mike,
You got your numbers wrong. The email list was extensive and the discussion went on for over a month.

I would love to hear from you why you think it would have been OK to leave the route alone. I really can't wrap my head around this kind of thinking. Feel free to PM if you want to keep it off MP.

If MP were a movie Eric Murdock would be the scenes with thoughtful exposition. I'm the car chase and explosion scenes. I for one love the thoughtful stuff in movies but I also go for the car chases and explosions. Too much of either is tedious but I do need both to be entertained.

Great post Eric.

Eric makes some valid points concerning low impact versus high impact climbing. However, bolts, chains, glue, chipped holds, etc. aren't whats squeezing out the low impact climber. It's knowledge! And MP isn't helping.

I was up at Sheepshead over the weekend and was really amazed at the crowds. The parking lot was full of campers and there was at least a dozen groups climbing up at the dome. The Isle of Ewe area was packed too. I asked myself why and came to the conclusion that it was the extensive knowledge of these areas that has them so crowded. Like it or not every climbing area has a life cycle and Rockfellow isn't immune. As people climb in an area they start to tell others about it. Eventually someone posts it up on MP for all to see. And Geir's topos don't help the matter. He creates them and advertises them for free on MP. All this publicity brings in more climbers. All this publicity that the "proudest piece of granite in southern Arizona" is getting is only going to facilitate the crowds up there. This is advertising at it's finest.

I'm not for or against climbers right to climb what and where they want. I just realize that as places become more well known they will become more crowded. When I first started climbing in the Stronghold there wasn't near the crowds. I could spend a warm spring Saturday afternoon out and not see one person. Now it's buzzing with climbers and Quaders. I am thankful for all the routes up at the Sheepshead. I always know that I can go up there and find a route open to climb. But I also know there are places I can go that no one goes because they aren't on MP or in one of Geir's topos. And I'm not going to be the one to post them.

Yes, fantastic post, Eric!

In reply to Mike's post about the time line and method of community involvement regarding the recently chopped route on Rockfellow Dome, Here are some clarifications:

-The route was posted on 11/6.

-At the (good) suggestion of one of Scott's friends, the discussion was moved off MP on 11/12. It continued via email with Scott included in all emails.

-Anyone who wanted to participate was added to the discussion. Invitations to the discussion were posted on MP and also made by email and phone. Everyone in the discussion was free to invite others.

-The last email in the discussion was on 11/28. There were approximately 170 total emails. Scott declined to reply in writing (which is fine, that is his choice.) Of all the people who voiced their opinion, three voted to leave the route alone and 19 voted to remove some or all of it.

-Scott was notified that if he didn't commit to doing something with the route it would be removed. No commitment was received.

-Jim and I chopped pitch 3 and above on 12/20.

That's six weeks folks. Everyone had plenty of opportunity to get involved and speak up. Nobody here claims to be perfect and we all have said and done things that were not in the best taste through this, myself included. But we made an effort to include everyone, consider the possible solutions (including just filling the holds), and give Scott an opportunity to fix the route himself.

All of this, by the way, took tremendous time and effort and likely far exceeded any effort Scott made to ascertain public opinion before chiseling this route to begin with. With 20-30 consecutive chiseled holds, this route was, to my knowledge, the most extensive example of chiseling on any single route in southern Arizona history. The fact that an effort was made involve the opinion of a larger public before chopping is unprecedented. Removing this route had nothing to do with vendettas or character attacks and everything to do with drawing a line of what is acceptable practice in establishing routes in the Stronghold and what is not. If anyone wants to expand this concept to other areas with known chiseling feel free to do so - you will receive no criticism from me.

I am told that the Scott Ayers we know today would have never chiseled that route to begin with, and that this was an honest lapse in judgment that humans are all prone to. I believe that. I myself have heard Scott rant about others' chiseling and believe that if another chiseled route is found in the Stronghold that he would be just as upset by it as the rest of us would.

Aside from correcting blatant misstatements, I will not be replying much to complaints from people who did not make an effort to get involved to begin with or to character attacks from anonymous posters/aliases.

[Edit to add] Mike, I liked the post you wrote about crowding in the Stronghold. I think that any information can contribute to crowding: my topos, MP, upcoming books, etc. However, I also feel that the presence of safe, fun routes (most of which I like) contribute to crowding; information about these routes will get out no matter what. Fortunately, even with topos, traditional, low impact climbs will always be less crowded simply because they require more knowledge, skill, and experience to climb. There are far more of these routes in the Stronghold than will ever be posted on MP or that I will ever be able to draw topos for.

I would like to see some before and after pictures of the "restoration".

You have time to take your "terrorist pics" but not a second to snap a few of your "good work".

Most patch jobs look like shit and are even worse than the bolt or hold.

How much weathering will it take for your "glue" to fall off or peel?