Action against Lama

Erik W wrote:I doubt Red Bull gives a shit that a handful of climbers - who likely weren't buying their product to begin with - won't buy any in the future because of their [our] objection to Lama's actions. For RB it's all about press and buzz, especially in the EXTREME teen market... and for them, ethics aren't even on the radar. Only place where our voice has any weight is with the climbing companies that sponsor Lama. Tell them that you will not buy their ropes and shoes as long as they continue to sponsor Lama and his actions in Patagonia (and add that you'll be telling everyone you know about the horseshit Lama is up to and the companies that are supporting his actions via their sponsorship). Mammut, Sportiva.... who else?

For every serious climber who decides to boycott Sportiva over this, there are a few dozen people who will buy their shoes and boots from REI unaware of these transgressions.

And besides, we'd just be one more whining group for them to deal with. I'm sure Red Bull gets a handful of complaints every time they film some mountain biker ripping down a fragile Utah hillside, but it's not worth their time to properly address it or acknowledge that a handful of people don't like it.

Regarding the petition, if any of you are on other climbing sites as well (especially EU, UK and USA ones), maybe start a thread there and post the link. Here's a shortened link for tweets etc:

bit.ly/foXVJd

I think the climbing world asked for this one. The Maestri route has got to be among the worst places in the world to take some kind of "ethical" stance. It should have been chopped as soon as it was put up. Then we could have a meaningful conversation about appropriate style.

Instead, legions of climbers, many of them well-known and highly respected, climbed the route while complaining about what an abomination it is. Yes, they did it in a better "style," but they still clipped a bunch of Maestri's bolts.

The route basically became a classic, and all those who did it and wrote about it and promoted their own ascents of it legitimized the whole sorry enterprise and set the stage for the logical next step in a process of degradation already well under way.

Don't get me wrong, I think that there may be some value in marshaling as much protest as possible, late in the game though it may be. But the real issue, going forward, is going to be whether we manage to keep a bright sharp line separating sport climbing and traditional climbing on our small home crags, because it is there that attitudes are bred and perspectives lost.

There have been a lot of good points raised here. Here's my $0.02:

- There have certainly been far worse ethical and stylistic transgressions in the history of climbing. But, isn't the point to keep moving forward? To keep improving? David Lama's Cerro Torre project, has, IMHO, been a step backward.

- His new plan of rap-bolting the headwall, in and of itself, is probably not worthy of protest. However, he should realize that now that he is under the spotlight of public scrutiny every small misstep becomes a big deal. People are looking for evidence that he learned his lesson - obviously, he hasn't.

- The thing that bugs me more than anything is that all the bolts last year were there so that the film crew could get great shots. Sorry, but bolting so you can make a new movie is lame. Many, many photographers have managed to capture amazing footage and videos without retrobolting, and many of them, climbers themselves, have managed to do so while actually participating in the climb.

Anyways I'm not arguing that this is the biggest problem going on right now, but it is a visible and public step backwards, and deserves attention. You can be sure Red Bull will be publicizing the hell out of it when he's done.

Mike Anderson wrote: emphasis added by me This is the problem with internet witch hunts. You don't know what is or isn't going on. Prior restraint (which is what you are suggesting) is one of the worst forms of oppression. The angry mobs need to disperse until you have something to be angry about. Continue to be outraged by the past, if it makes you feel better, but censoring people for "what you imagine they are gonna do" is abhorrent and you should be ashamed of yourselves. And seriously, "horrors"? Aren't you exaggerating a little bit?

+1

Jeff F. wrote:Isn't Will Gadd sponsored by Red-Bull too? I wonder if he could chime in and spell it out for them?

Will is currently too busy bolting the crap out of another m12 route in the spray cave.

Gadd posted a long speil on his blog last year defending Lama and refuting the claims on number of bolts and garbage left on the mtn. He's on board, IT GIVES HIM WINGS!!!

Chris Drover wrote:There have been a lot of good points raised here. Here's my $0.02: - There have certainly been far worse ethical and stylistic transgressions in the history of climbing. But, isn't the point to keep moving forward? To keep improving? David Lama's Cerro Torre project, has, IMHO, been a step backward. - His new plan of rap-bolting the headwall, in and of itself, is probably not worthy of protest. However, he should realize that now that he is under the spotlight of public scrutiny every small misstep becomes a big deal. People are looking for evidence that he learned his lesson - obviously, he hasn't. - The thing that bugs me more than anything is that all the bolts last year were there so that the film crew could get great shots. Sorry, but bolting so you can make a new movie is lame. Many, many photographers have managed to capture amazing footage and videos without retrobolting, and many of them, climbers themselves, have managed to do so while actually participating in the climb. Anyways I'm not arguing that this is the biggest problem going on right now, but it is a visible and public step backwards, and deserves attention. You can be sure Red Bull will be publicizing the hell out of it when he's done.

+1

I signed the petition!

Mike Anderson wrote: Lead-bolting from hooks is a technicality loop-hole that is stylistically no different from rap bolting.

Not only is it stylistically different, it's not even the same sport.

Maybe you meant ethically, although it could easily be argued that they are not the same in that regard either.

The bottom line is that IF (and it's a big if) Lama rap bolts Cerro Torre, what has he accomplished? The rad kids who buy Red Bull will think that what he did is ultra rad while the majority of the climbing community will think he is a tool. Red Bull will sell more sugar water. Lama will get some $$$ for his next "project" and life will go on.

It's not as if this is going to be the first 5.16 or something - it will likely be in the hard 12 or easier 13 range. Hardly cutting edge and not something that will inspire the climbing world - just remember that the climbing world is not his audience.

The real shame lies in the motives, not the method.

Peter Franzen wrote: For every serious climber who decides to boycott Sportiva over this, there are a few dozen people who will buy their shoes and boots from REI unaware of these transgressions. And besides, we'd just be one more whining group for them to deal with. I'm sure Red Bull gets a handful of complaints every time they film some mountain biker ripping down a fragile Utah hillside, but it's not worth their time to properly address it or acknowledge that a handful of people don't like it.

that's the spirit! the "i'm only one person who noone really listens to anyway so why should i even try to make a difference" spirit.

latino.foxnews.com/latino/h…

There's still time to help. We could all pitch in, or even buy a ticket to go to Haiti/DR to give aid where it's needed.

Actually, in his Blog Will Gadd was not defending Lama. Just giving his own opinion.
And the number of bolts placed and garbage left on the mountain was grossly exaggerated in the initial report. Which is what Will is refering to. Slandering him does nothing for this subject.

The only post on this entire thread which makes any sense at all is from rgold.
If climbers don't control the bolting that occurs on their local crags how then can we expect climbers to respect the sanctity of any mountains? It's our own fault it has gotten to this point.

And by the way. Neither Sportiva North America and Mammut North America gave money to Lama for this film. Get your facts straight people.

Sport Climbing and Trad Climbing are like Futbol and Football. They're both played on rock but its not the same sport. If somebody put big yellow uprights on your Soccer field, the soccer players would be furious and they would take them down. If somebody took the uprights off your football field, the football players would also be furious. It seems like this route has been a bolt-field for a long time, so maybe David Lama isn't such a horrible evil person for bringing more bolts to play with. Its not like he bolted double cross..haha (somebodys trad field). Maybe this comparison is no good because of the way trad and sport routes are blended along with local ethics, but mixing the two usually ends up like one of those football fields with a baseball diamond on it.... an ugly playing surface that nobody wants anything to do with.

As a side note, I think it is lame to go to a place as beautiful as Cerro Torre and find a ladder to the top... or however high it goes. And there is no excuse for leaving your garbage all over a route unless proper clean up threatened your safety, in which case you need to go back and clean it up later.

Last side note, nobody ever offered me a ton of money to climb a certain way in a certain place, nor will they, but I think a lot of people might change their tune about how terrible it is to add bolts to a route full of bolts if Red Bull came knocking and wanted to feature you in a film.

Check out Colin Haley's blog for a great summary of the entire history of the route, together with last year's controversy. In there are a lot of photos documenting what happened to the route a year ago.

Haha +1 for Chris Deulin.

Yes, Chris there are real issues and real causes that could potentially make a difference in the world.

jack roberts wrote:And by the way. Neither Sportiva North America and Mammut North America gave money to Lama for this film. Get your facts straight people.

Good point, Jack. For that reason I made sure to specify that the petition letters were sent to La Sportiva S.p.A. in Italy and Mammut Sports Group AG in Switzerland.

Maybe we should just ban sport climbing? That would probably clear this all up quite nicely.

If he is going to place bolts, I'd rather he do it on rappel and place them in prime spots for clipping. This would almost certainly result in fewer bolts and more enjoyment for future climbers. He's a rock climber after all, not an adventure bolter.

Am I missing something?

It's been a day since the petition went up, so I thought I'd post some of the stats from the bit.ly link in case any of you are interested.

# of people who have signed the petition so far: 314
# of people who have clicked thru the bit.ly link: 353

Traffic by location:

Traffic by referrer:


Again, the above is just for the shortened bit.ly link - full URL links have had a lot of click-thru as well, as have 'share' links on facebook.

bit.ly/foXVJd