Denali Fee Raises of 150%
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I was looking on the alpinist website. Saw the article, kind of suprised it didn't pop up in the recent news forum on the MP.com home screen. Check it out. What does everyone think? |
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mountainproject.com/v/gener…
It was a topic but didn't get much attention when I posted it. I thought it was an issue too but I guess not to most climbers. |
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I've been following it but to be honest there's a billion other mountains out there that are free to climb. Don't get me wrong I think Denali is a pretty badass mountain and I hate to see fees go higher to put it out of reach of some climbers but eh you win some you lose some. |
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I've been following it but to be honest there's a billion other mountains out there that are free to climb. |
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What's scarier is that it's a 250% increase. [$200 x 2.5 = $500] |
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tradryan wrote:What's scarier is that it's a 250% increase. [$200 x 2.5 = $500]Sorry to call you out but $200 to $500 is mathematically a 150% increase. |
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The NPS is seeking input and ideas regarding two key questions: 1) Is the current mountaineering program the most cost effective, efficient, and safe program we can devise? 2) How much of the cost should be recovered from users, and what options are there for how those costs can be distributed? Some of my thoughts Is this fee increase addressing a natural resource conservation concern? Are peak-baggers eurotrashing the mountain?? Are there education opportunities to better assist to climbers contemplating this mountain? Air support & evac should be a secondary in support of the ground effort. The NPS may be relying too much now on rapid extraction by air. It is effective and does limit exposure of rescuers & patients by time in terrain and number of rescuers needed, especially unfriendly terrain; but it's also the highest risk of any type of rescue operation. Acting like heli/air-rescue should be SOP can be a problem. Are the higher talented climbers of any value on the mtn to the NPS or those that need aid? Raising the fee potentially eliminates the talented climbers that can't rub two nickels together but can lend a hand to others needing aid while promoting more of the lesser talented hiking peak-bagger able to pay anything but then puts the NPS in a position where they now must support them. Or maybe better put, peak-baggers should be redefined as morons with cash -- meaning that the conservation issues that go along with this will only serve to worsen. |
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So if you didn't go explore the links above, here are some opportunities to have your questions answered by the NPS |
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That sucks, but as long as Americans keep refusing to pay taxes, this sort of thing will keep happening. But, you should easily be able to afford it with your big tax refund, oh wait, that assumes you are wealthy enough to get a big refund. Fees, toll roads, deductibles, etc, are just regressive taxes and John Boehner is so happy he can't hold back the tears.... |
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So its going up 150%, just like my US health insurance and US health care. :-( Mark Nelson wrote: Air support & evac should be a secondary in support of the ground effort. The NPS may be relying too much now on rapid extraction by air. It is effective and does limit exposure of rescuers & patients by time in terrain and number of rescuers needed, especially unfriendly terrain; but it's also the highest risk of any type of rescue operation. Acting like heli/air-rescue should be SOP can be a problem.Mark, I see your point here, but this model is so alive and well in the Alps and it kicks ass. I think you could argue both ways about which is riskier, I think 50 plus volunteers that are stoked about a mission wondering around on a mountain looking for someone, is quite expensive as well and seems a bit more riskier. Especially if it becomes overnight missions as they often sometimes do, then you have volunteers from all around racing in there cars to get to these scenes from every direction. Now Denali may be an entirely different scene given that it is NPS and potentially there are good Mountaineer SAR crew close and already in position to deploy on the mountain. Here in the Alps it is so impressive to see a bird come in and long line out a full blown Doctor, Gendarme, and a full licensed UIAGM mountain guide , Mind you these three people are usually 1 person that actually holds all three credentials, Pretty impressive. Usually 1 or 2 ground crew are deployed, bird circles for about 5 minutes or will go land someplace close wait for the rigging, and Voila, Gone, it took about 4 or 5 people between flight crew and rescuers and less then 30 minutes, Not to mention the victim is now in route to difinitive care. Granted the bird is involved, but how is it riskier then putting 50 plus rescuers in the field for 1 persons broken leg or something. Isn't the first rule of rescue or scene safety and scene survey to not make another victim. I think you are just increasing the odds of this by deploying more folks on the ground which don't do this as there sole job for a living and God Bless them for volunteering, but it seems to be exposing more potential vicitms. No discredit to American SAR teams and what they do, absolutely amazing and yeah, most are volunteering, but Hands down the Systems, training and staff are far superior in the Alps. But I know a huge part of it is what the government wants to fund and in the states unfortunately this is a huge struggle. I here your thoughts, I'm not saying your right or I'm right, but I see whats happening here in the Alps, it's impressive and I can by Carte Neige for less then a night out at a Boulder bar, It's nothing to cover my ass here, it's just my 2 cents |
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Mike Anderson wrote:That sucks, but as long as Americans keep refusing to pay taxes, this sort of thing will keep happening. But, you should easily be able to afford it with your big tax refund, oh wait, that assumes you are wealthy enough to get a big refund. Fees, toll roads, deductibles, etc, are just regressive taxes and John Boehner is so happy he can't hold back the tears.... What's fascinating is that Eastern national parks rarely have fees, not even entrance fees. Great Smokey Mtns NP is the most visited park and they don't charge an entrance fee!! If you live in the west, that should really piss you off. Maybe ask your congress people why Westerners are footing the bill for the entire NPS.Well put. Funny how the states that have representatives that complain the most (and have the lowest taxes), get the most federal dollars from the rest of the high tax states (i.e. tax dollars flow from the blue states to the red states.... CA is a net loss state). Still, I gladly pay the NP fee to climb in the Ditch and Tuolumne because the NP service is surely under a lot of fiscal strain right now. I'm just glad that we have areas that are preserved as opposed to the "wilderness" setting of the mountains in Europe. |
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It's a tough discussion, Joe. |
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You can't really compare air ops in the Alps vs Denali. Denali is a high altitude, arctic mountain, so helicopters are much more risky there. |
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minor point Mike, but the big tax refund is really a return of tax overpayment made throughout the year because the taxpayer is too ignorant to manage their own affairs and would rather invest in the U.S. Federal Govt; talk about a huge zit on the pimpled ass of humanity that ever needed to be popped, and rightfully so. |
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The alpinist article states that the climbing fee does not fund search and rescue, rather the mountaineering program: climbing rangers, base camp doctors, waste management, trash removal, weather reports, etc. So land versus air rescue costs doesn't seem to be an issue. |
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agree with mike about comparing denali to the alps in terms of heli access. i would consider it comparing apples to lawn furniture, as the two aren't really even like comparing fruit. he pointed out the altidude and temp/climate differences. there is also the population density difference. there are a lot of cities around the alps, as well as a much larger climbing population, so having a few helicopters around is more feasible. |
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Maybe keeping all the staff around the base of Denali, with rangers and extra officials is the bad idea. Mountains are supposed to be wild. Doesn't it add to the challenge if there isn't a support crew waiting 24/7 to get your ass out of trouble? |
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I think the peak increase only covers the administrative costs and the expenses of educating climbers. Even the patrols on the West Butt or on the mtn itself are usually volunteers staffed by paid rangers. The rescues are still operated by the armed services and are written off as "exercises" so at no direct expense to tax payers. |
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I think the adverse selection/moral hazard problems that Mark alluded to are the potentially bigger problems here, both with respect to the fee and air rescues. The fee will price younger/poorer but talented climbers out of the mountain resulting in more and more rich peak-baggers swarming the mountain equipped with more cash than skills. |
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Are my right-wing-nut conspiracy rants just not funny anymore? |