Colorado Thief caught in the act at Smith

SUBANTZ also addmitted to being a hold chipper. Please go to seclimbers.org , and look under the topic: Please stop CHIPPING Toxic Wall that I posted.

The guy was in the process of taking 35 draws -- obviously this was NOT a simple matter of semantics regarding draws left behind. What does anybody need with an extra 35 draws? Cash. Those would have been for sale within days on Craigslist or somewhere else.

Does anyone from the springs know his name? I climb down there quite frequently and hope my pack doesn't come up missing because I left it at the bottom of a crag.

I just talked to the camp host and they remember the vehicle. They had to give them a warning for not having a day use pass the first day they were here.

Come to smith, don't pay for parking and steal draws...not good karma.

Ryando Smithman wrote: Well, if people are concerned about their QD's being taken, simply don't leave them. If I stash a pad (I don't) and it gets taken, there can be no crying on my end; I left it there.

Sigh. What is your acceptable time limit for "leaving" your property? Of course you've left things out of sight for periods of time- crashpads or packs while you've walked the base of a crag or used the shitter. You'd probably be upset to find your stuff missing after 5-10min. What about after an hour? 4hrs? Overnight?

Tell us what the official cut-off is between being a thief and "fair game".

And I ain't mad, you're just missing the point. Folks that climb on the Picnic Lunch Wall aren't concerned about their draws being taken because draws USUALLY AREN'T TAKEN. Thus, it is noteworthy when some yahoo is caught swinging around with a stick-clip stealing draws.

I'm just trying to do my part to quell the possible, inner nOOb/klepto lurking in the Mountain Project readership.

Julius Beres wrote: I would be interested in hearing from a lawyer, but I assume this is an ethics question and not a legal one. My assumption is that what he was doing was not legally theft. But I am curious where the line is drawn. If someone takes my car parked on a public street it is theft. If I put a $20 bill down on a public street and someone takes it, it is definitely not considered theft. Both are my property and both are left at the same place, but there is a distinction made. I don't want to get into a debate on whether it is right or wrong to leave draws, but I am curious what the legal grounds are for leaving your property on public lands, and whether you are forfeiting your property rights. If I go do an alpine route and I leave my tent at the base, I assume no one has the right to take it. However, do I have the same legal standing if I backpack in 2 weeks before and leave a bunch of gear in the woods? The argument would be the same as for fixed draws... it is hard to do an alpine route carrying all the gear at once, so I stashed some of it... but do I have a right to claim someone that took it is a thief?

Land managers have pretty much said any gear left on routes is considered abandonment of property. As such, a LEO would probably not get involved other than to keep the peace as it is a civil matter. Kind of like when the repo guy gets busted by the "owner" yet has the vehicle jacked up but has not left. The LEO ain't going to do much but keep it civil. Though some might encourage the right thing to be done.

Draws on routes are obviously going to be returned to whether someone is coming back the next afternoon or week. Some are "personal" property while others are "community" property. When a route has draws from top to bottom it is obviously not bootie. If someone is Jonsing to take them down for what ever reason (safety, unsightly, want to use their own draws, etc) then efforts should be made to return them to the "owner". Even if they leave them clipped to the anchors at the top.

Regardless of ones personal feelings on the draws left on routes issue, this douche bag was just helping himself to "free" gear. He is not a climber or part of the climbing community. Just a douche bag that needs to called out and ostracized where ever he may schlep his sorry azz.

Julius Beres wrote: I would be interested in hearing from a lawyer, but I assume this is an ethics question and not a legal one. My assumption is that what he was doing was not legally theft. But I am curious where the line is drawn. If someone takes my car parked on a public street it is theft. If I put a $20 bill down on a public street and someone takes it, it is definitely not considered theft. Both are my property and both are left at the same place, but there is a distinction made. I don't want to get into a debate on whether it is right or wrong to leave draws, but I am curious what the legal grounds are for leaving your property on public lands, and whether you are forfeiting your property rights. If I go do an alpine route and I leave my tent at the base, I assume no one has the right to take it. However, do I have the same legal standing if I backpack in 2 weeks before and leave a bunch of gear in the woods? The argument would be the same as for fixed draws... it is hard to do an alpine route carrying all the gear at once, so I stashed some of it... but do I have a right to claim someone that took it is a thief?

I am not a lawyer, but I know that the standard used by Yosemite is that property left for greater than 24 hours can be considered abandoned.

Tevis Blom wrote:Something about the people climbing 14s makes them think the cliff is theirs to deposit their junk on. Maybe the elites should clean up their crap like the rest of us moderate losers.

If you had any idea how much Ian contributes to Smith Rock climbing, and the upkeep of the park, your head would implode from the irony of these statements.

phillip wrote: If you had any idea how much Ian contributes to Smith Rock climbing, and the upkeep of the park, your head would implode from the irony of these statements.

So if I were to move to Bend and help maintain Smith I could put up draws on all the 5.9s and leave them there?

P LaDouche wrote: So if I were to move to Bend and help maintain Smith I could put up draws on all the 5.9s and leave them there?

That would cost a lot for one person, gumbies and nOObs would steal them, AND you'd have to settle for pinkpoints.

If you leave your shit laying around or on a route it can get stolen.
"Instant Karma is gonna get ya"-John Lennon

Everyone get the lesson learned; don't leave stuff around for idiots to decide its theirs.
P.S. nice rap video, where that fits in to all this I am not sure.

sonvclimbing wrote:This guy is a thief. No doubt. To kill over it, beat him sensless or make fun of him = something wrong with you.

Maybe I have the east coast up bringing, but if I catch you stealing my stuff?? I don't know about a beating, but you'd probably catch one in the mouth.

Not to make a deal of it, but what would you suggest as you seemingly can't even make fun of a person blatantly stealing? No fricken way you stick clip up a 5.14 and DON'T know what you're doing is wrong. I don't really advocate violence, but that dude would have been handing my draws back pretty quickly, not racking them. Oh and to emphasize the point, HE STOLE THE ANCHOR BINERS!! I don't consider that fixed gear. Kudos to you guys for talking rationally to a guy that was lying in your face about stealing.

And I don't really care about the fixed / not fixed thing but in the wise words of Masta Ace....
Leave ya bike outside, come back outside, I guarantee your shit gone.

Should have called the cops right away. Bet they would have found a ton of stolen property in his car and maybe something else that would have put him in jail for a while.

am i the only one who thinks he looks like Hans Klopek?

damn colorado climbers. kleptomaniacs...

phillip wrote: Third, your idea of redpointing vs pinkpointing while sport climbing is archaic. The bolt is the protection. Because sport climbs have fixed pro, sport climbers don't get excited by the act of hanging draws. It's already been decided where the pro is by the route equip-er, thus there's nothing mentally challenging about hanging draws- it simply adds contrived difficulty to redpoint attempts.

So - also no difference between leading a route with pre-placed pro and toproping the same route? After all, it is the climbing that matters, not the mucking around with pro.

This guy is brilliant; an asshole, but brilliant...

- He makes a good chunk of cash reselling free gear; he cannot suffer any legal ramifications; and as for his conscience...even the climbing community he steals from can't come to a consensus regarding the ethics pertaining to gear on routes.

-I live in NYC, I climb in the Gunks, we don't leave gear, but we also don't have much fixed gear to leave it on.

-Leaving draws on a route in absentia implies, to me, some sense of ownership over that line for the duration of the project....something I'm confident we're all against.

Eric Rhicard wrote:Should have called the cops right away. Bet they would have found a ton of stolen property in his car...

+1

This guy is pretty clearly a common thief.
Not a climber, a thief.
He has a BS answer to any question and the women sit around acting uninterested. They've got a real scam going there.

Like Eric says, you open this mofo's trunk, I bet you find a lot of the racks that have been reported stolen over the past year.

What time of day did this incident occur ?

Guy deserves a beatdown for the bad hippie beard and stupid hat alone, add the thievery and he's close to capital punishment territory.

SW Marlatt wrote: So - also no difference between leading a route with pre-placed pro and toproping the same route? After all, it is the climbing that matters, not the mucking around with pro.

Picnic Lunch Wall is 550ft tall. It'd be tricky to toprope.