Colorado Thief caught in the act at Smith

unfortunately, I can't even climb 12... so I don't project much. But even the steeper stuff I have tried, I always clean my gear.
I guess the world is just F'd up, and that is why I would expect to have my stuff taken if I left it out in the wide open.

I dunno, just a personal choice. I like to clean the route for the next group to enjoy. (and I wouldn't climb on questionable gear left on a route in full UV and weather)

Wow,I can't believe how relaxed these guys are while confronting him.Can't say I would have handled the situation the same way.
At the very least I would have called the cops and gave them a copy of the video.Although had I found the guy stealing my draws I probably would have just turned the camera off....

Anyone post that photo on RC.com or Supertopo? Sort of like a wanted poster...at least know people know who to keep an eye out for. Chances are he frequents RC.com.

I still think he was let off easy. If he knew what he was doing a tongue lashing isnt going to stop him from doing it again in the future. Did you at least make him put every draw back up?

Maybe the guy wanted to lead these climbs without draws all over them? Every time I leave my draws on my 5.11- projects they all get stolen. Maybe I need to find this dude. Maybe when you are climbing 14a the rules change.

wow...regardless of an opinion on fixed gear..this IS lame. Caught so bad.

He is lucky you guys were nice. Others may have been "not so nice".

I'll share some advice I hear from "climbers" who have posted on other topics.

"If you don't like them, don't clip them."

This should work for both retrobolts and fixed draws.
Another ethics problem solved.

Holy Shit! It's Hans Klopek!

You'd think that after starring in The Burbs, he wouldn't have to resort to stealing....apparently he got to keep the hat and the ratty beard.... at :36 sec in you'll see what I mean......

youtube.com/watch?v=R7tAlzT…

Tea wrote:Well...20 if you had thrashed him to a steezy Steve Aoki beat bumping from his girlfriends Ipod.

I'd have served up some next-level-shit and tossed him off the cliff.

youtube.com/watch?v=4_pS46Y…

TWAL wrote:Wow,I can't believe how relaxed these guys are while confronting him.Can't say I would have handled the situation the same way. At the very least I would have called the cops and gave them a copy of the video.Although had I found the guy stealing my draws I probably would have just turned the camera off....

I would be interested in hearing from a lawyer, but I assume this is an ethics question and not a legal one. My assumption is that what he was doing was not legally theft. But I am curious where the line is drawn.

If someone takes my car parked on a public street it is theft. If I put a $20 bill down on a public street and someone takes it, it is definitely not considered theft. Both are my property and both are left at the same place, but there is a distinction made.

I don't want to get into a debate on whether it is right or wrong to leave draws, but I am curious what the legal grounds are for leaving your property on public lands, and whether you are forfeiting your property rights.

If I go do an alpine route and I leave my tent at the base, I assume no one has the right to take it. However, do I have the same legal standing if I backpack in 2 weeks before and leave a bunch of gear in the woods? The argument would be the same as for fixed draws... it is hard to do an alpine route carrying all the gear at once, so I stashed some of it... but do I have a right to claim someone that took it is a thief?

Ryando Smithman wrote: +1. When trad gear gets left in a wall, it is called 'booty'. I expect the same with sport climbing. I enjoy a good redpoint, and granted, I'm not climbing 5.14 (just working 5.12), to me, that 5.12 feels like another persons 5.14. To us 'lesser' climbers, our limit feels like the hardest thing in the world, and honestly, when I redpoint a route, I feel much more accomplished than when I follow the pre-placed clips up. I wonder if he was going to put up an ad on MP though, stating he found left gear? I know that's not common practice with traddies; leaves me curious.

First of all, this thief stated that he was taking the draws to "salvage" what he could for his personal use- not because he thought it was booty or littering the wall.

Second, a biner or two left on a highpoint of a route = booty.
However, someone's draws hanging on a route = NOT YOURS! (it's that easy)

Third, your idea of redpointing vs pinkpointing while sport climbing is archaic. The bolt is the protection. Because sport climbs have fixed pro, sport climbers don't get excited by the act of hanging draws. It's already been decided where the pro is by the route equip-er, thus there's nothing mentally challenging about hanging draws- it simply adds contrived difficulty to redpoint attempts.

Finally, if people were really concerned about the visual impact of climbing at Smith, they would not use chalk, which is much more visible than draws. Most draws hanging at Smith are difficult to see unless you are standing under the route, while the chalked holds of Heinous Cling and Dreamin' are easily seen from the parking lot.

JLP wrote:Fake.

It is not possible to fake next-level-shit.

what about the belayer? no one lectured him/her. obviously he aided up just to get the draws. would you belay someone just to steal draws?

Julius Beres wrote:My assumption is that what he was doing was not legally theft. But I am curious where the line is drawn.

It's clearly drawn - when it's not yours and it's not "lost" by someone else, it's theft. He is a filthy fucking thief, end of story.

This guy is a thief. No doubt.

To kill over it, beat him sensless or make fun of him = something wrong with you.

If you leave something, be prepared to lose it.

Your draws hanging all over the place is unsightly and cumbersome I don't care what grade you climb.

BillCoe you seem to have handled the situation properly.

The belayer was a girl. Don't know if girlfriend, sister or friend. There was another older woman there, appeared to be a mother. Both women barely spoke and did not know anything about the climb. They look quite bored. They were not involved in the discussion.

Wow! Great work. I am surprised how calm you two were. I would have been pretty tempted to pull that scraggly beard of his. I hope this guy realizes his guilt and stops doing this crap.

I guess I am hopelessly naive, but I honestly don't expect people to take things that are not theirs. I understand the concept of "booty" in trad climbing (I don't really have much access to sport climbing), but from what I have seen in practice, people generally will ask around if a piece is someone's before taking it. If it is obvious that someone is working on a project, even if they are nowhere to be found, you just leave it alone.

35 QDs? That is just plain evil.

If draws shouldn't be left hanging, should the hangers be? Maybe we should hang our hangers. Just saying...

sonvclimbing wrote:This guy is a thief. No doubt. To kill over it, beat him sensless or make fun of him = something wrong with you. If you leave something, be prepared to lose it. Your draws hanging all over the place is unsightly and cumbersome I don't care what grade you climb. BillCoe you seem to have handled the situation properly.

Are you a climber? I have to ask because your post doesn't make any sense. Have you ever bolted a route, cleaned a route, installed an anchor, replaced anchor chains/quicklinks/biners?

By your "logic", anyone who has placed a bolt should expect it to be "salvaged".

The only reason climbing grades have anything to do with this is because... People who climb hard are better people! Duh!

I wasn't there (probably that's a good thing as although I'm fat and old I've been in lots of fights in the course of my life and have a less polite reserve than some) and this isn't my video. As the guy claimed to be from Colorado, the suggestion on Cascadeclimbers.com was to put the info where folks from Colorado could view it. The gentlemen who were there that day are all widely known as good people, including Ian who did the video and is posting upthread, this is just another instance of why that is the case.

Original post here if anyone wants to see that thread: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/995361/Re_smith_thief#Post995361