Can you use a rap ring/decender ring as an emergency belay or rap device

Call 911 and get a helicopter to lift you out of there. It beats Munters and twisted ropes and all that hassle.

Alias wrote: Really? Never? You haven't spent much time in the alpine if you think that a situation like this could never come up. Crazy shit happens up there all the time and having one more tool (method) in the tool box is never a bad idea. I know all kinds of tricks that I wouldn't use unless I HAD to but knowing that they do work and that I can rely on them if I HAVE to is part of being self reliant in the mountains. I seem to remember a story from Twight where he recalls dropping a belay device and having to rap off single pieces of gear using a larger tri-cam as a rappel device. If he hadn't known how to do this or had the brains to figure it out in the situation he would be dead today. Using a rap ring would certainly not be ideal but I would do it in a heartbeat if I HAD to. No problem. If the choice was this or muntering off a standard "D" biner I would go with the (non-rolled) rap ring because, as anyone will tell you who has tried to rap with a munter off of a standard biner, it sucks and is really difficult to manage the twists while dangling 100+ft off the deck. Of course I would want to set this up at home first so that I had it dialed when the time comes, which is what I think you are trying to do here. If I had a pear I would use that because Munters work flawlessly off of a pear.

I'll try not to make any smart ass comments about the epic... But if you have a carabiner and a rope, you're in a prime position to use a munter. You can use a rap ring too, but I've used munters a good number of times and they get the job done. I'm suprised so many people resist the munter. Now, lets take out the idea that you have a carabiner. All thats left on your rack is a rope and rap ring. Any solution you find to that will also work with a munter! Now lets take the rope out of the equation...This is why I carry a BASE parachute with me on every climb. If you have a specific scenario in mind that would REQUIRE a rap ring used for a rappel, let me know. Otherwise, it's an essentially useless piece of knowledge to have...

you can also use the ring as your last ditch emergency effort to ping it off your partners head cause they dropped the rack with all the gear; when it hits the ground you can get a distance read from the sound return.

Alias wrote: To what epic are you alluding? Did I claim to be an elite alpinist? No...so take your condescending tone and shove it up your ass. Have you tried a munter on a standard D? Do you know some trick to get it to work better? Please post up if you do. I've tried several different times and have come to the conclusion that the munter only works well with a pear or maybe an oval. I believe that every text on the subject including FOTH agrees with me. The OP wasn't asking about the Munter. He was asking something else but thanks for your smart ass comment! Some of you are acting like his question is stupid. It's not. He's just trying to get opinions about his ideas on different uses for equipment he's all ready carrying. How dare he think about creative uses for the gear he's all ready got! Certainly wouldn't be an ideal use for a rap ring but it would work and get him safely to the ground. Although I haven't experimented with this idea myself I see no reason why it wouldn't work. The point I was making earlier is that the alpine world is completely unpredictable. Shit happens. Things get dropped, lost, swept away in avy's and dropped into crevasses or down steep snow slopes. To discourage this type of experimentation and creative thinking would be a mistake. Nothing works in every situation and having more options to help you out is NEVER a bad thing. I've seen lots of stupid ideas about non standard gear uses posted on this site and others. This is not one of those ideas. Creative solution and food for thought but NOT a "useless piece of knowledge".

I've used a 2 rope munter off an offset D a good number of times. It may not be as smooth as and ATC but you are guaranteed it's safe. The rap ring on the other hand, may be smoother, but you are not guaranteed anything. Why risk it? If you're that opposed to the munter and you have a history of dropping gear, bring a lightweight backup belay device that's specifically designed and tested for its intended use. I never called anyone stupid, and my useless piece of knowledge statement was an exaggeration. You don't need to know that a rap ring might work as a rap device but there's always something to learn in climbing. I believe it is "The Mountaineering Handbook" that discussses the munter as being one of the best PRIMARY belay/rappel techniques. I too like the munter and if I dropped my belay device there would be no panic...the munter would be there!

EDIT: and the epic I was referring to was JPVallone's post because I thought it was hilarious. How about instead of saying "shit happens" you give an actual situation where you would NEED a rap ring to rappel. Then I'll be happy.

i guess i am not seeing how a munter is any more "guaranteed" than a solid rap ring used as a sticht plate.

slim wrote:i guess i am not seeing how a munter is any more "guaranteed" than a solid rap ring used as a sticht plate.

A munter works regardless of rope diameter, because it is relative to itself.
With a rap ring used as a sticht, then the size of the ring, the diameter of the rope, and even the shape of the biner you use all play into the variability of the system and your ability to control the situation- which of course may be in poor conditions and will get progressively more difficult as you descend and less rope is below.

This is why some devices are not to be used on ropes that are too skinny for their designs. I'm not sure about the rap ring- it may be ideal for 15mm ropes!

For my own part, due to the twist issue my backups for rappelling are:
1) Biner Break
2) Munter
3) Improvise (*)

(*) = A rap ring or anything else used as such a belay device sounds pretty improvised to me.

My backups for belaying a climber are:
1) Munter
2) Bail and rap off, no belaying.

slim wrote:i guess i am not seeing how a munter is any more "guaranteed" than a solid rap ring used as a sticht plate.

Sticht plate=Belay/Rappel Device

Munter hitch=Belay/Rappel Device, method, etc...

Rap Ring=Bail gear not intended for belaying and rappeling. They are perfect circles and can get funky forces applied to them. "The Mountaineering Handbook" that I mentioned earlier also talks about this. Putting this aside, a solid rap ring you would want to use would probably weigh more than a sticht plate, and offer little to no advantage over a Munter hitch. If you are doing a long route or think you will drop your belay device, bring an extra sticht plate. Or just don't drop your belay device. For the rare occasion that you do drop your device, belay with the Munter. I'm not saying the rap ring idea won't work, I'm just saying that for all the reasons above, it's not needed.

to be honest with you, if the rope diameter works with the rap ring, i would probably use it before the biner break (in the future). more simple. i see what you are saying though, particularly about the rope diameter working with the ring diameter.

JJ, what did climbers use before things were 'designed' for climbing? ingenuity. how much 'funkier' will the loads be on the rap ring, as opposed to an atc/sticht plate/figure 8/etc? probably not much.

slim wrote: JJ, what did climbers use before things were 'designed' for climbing? ingenuity. how much 'funkier' will the loads be on the rap ring, as opposed to an atc/sticht plate/figure 8/etc? probably not much.

Actually, probably a lot. But this probably wouldn't be a big deal with a solid, high strength rap ring and body weight loads. You can't compare the past climbing culture with the present climbing culture. The fact of it is that things today are designed for climbing so use them. An experienced climber today could make the judgement call on the rap ring, but it probably shouldn't be widely accepted. Think of how telling a first time sport leader trying to rig a rap at the top of a climb that because he forgot his belay device he should just improvise...

i guess i am from the era of the self-taught. we didn't really need fischer price "my first rapping debacle" books to show us how things work.

and i disagree about the loads really being that different between using a ring and the other devices.

To be honest, my backup plan if I ever dropped my belay device amounted to munther for belaying, biner break or improvised tube (the #8 hexcentric works well) for rappelling. The rope twisting issue is non-trivial, and could add hours to a descent. Its a nightmare on flat ground.

for me, the rope twist is thm main deal-breaker (no pun intended) with the munter. i've used it a couple times, but it seems like it takes a while to get the twists back out of the rope. i like the #8 hex idea, other than running the rope over the hex cord inside the hex (unless you are using a hex with the steel cable?).

Alias wrote: Hey JP. Do you have anything constructive to add or are you just gonna follow me around the message boards this morning and drop snarky comments because you're butthurt that I disagree with your advice in the other thread?

The tone of your know it all threads instills a message that your are addressing a bunch of dipshits, Just lighten up your tone and don't sound like a know it all,

And yeah my but is killing me, thanks for your concerns.

Mark Nelson wrote:you can also use the ring as your last ditch emergency effort to ping it off your partners head cause they dropped the rack with all the gear; when it hits the ground you can get a distance read from the sound return.

+1 for uses of the rap ring

JJ Brunner wrote: Think of how telling a first time sport leader trying to rig a rap at the top of a climb that because he forgot his belay device he should just improvise...

There are a lot of things that a first time sport climber need not be concerned with even if he drops his belay device. That doesn't mean its unsafe to talk about them or say its ok. When people say to improvise something they aren't talking about developing a new technique on the spot. 99.999% of the time it means go down to your next trick in the bag so the more tricks you have the better. Almost all of our tricks to get down a rope are just as safe as an ATC. The problem is that they are less convenient.

A strong 22kn rap ring will handle just about anything that the climbing world can throw at it.

My 2 cents:

First: Rope-craft is more important knowledge in improvisation than knowing if a ring will get you down. Whatever works will get you down, and the more you know about what you can do with rope, webbing, or braided pieces of your gore-tex jacket, is going to be invaluable. Example: several times I have forgotten a harness and tied a swiss-seat, once I tied it wrong and on the wrap it squeezed all the air out of my lungs=scary rappel of gasping for air. Also, if you drop the rack, it would be invaluable to know how to make pro from knotted rope, seek out natural pro, old pitons, or french-free downclimbing in order to escape the mountain.

Second: Mr. Barton, if you are curious, try it out.

slim wrote:i guess i am from the era of the self-taught. we didn't really need fischer price "my first rapping debacle" books to show us how things work. and i disagree about the loads really being that different between using a ring and the other devices.

I started with very little instruction as well. I think my biggest problem is that I can't visualize the rap ring being very smooth and efficient. Although I've never tried it and don't own any rap rings. Sticht plates are designed like carabiners where the "spine" is taking the load in line with the direction of the pull (If that explanation makes any sense...) Rap rings are not designed this way and must be made much heavier and stronger for the same forces. I just think it'd be much more effective to bring a sticht plate along as a backup if you don't like the munter. Twists in the rope have never really been a big deal to me, then again, I'm the master and untangling ropes!

This is the notorious rap ring. A bit stronger than the biner as per the question that I originally posted. The rope is 10.3 I think and the rap ring is a bit more compact than the ordinary ring.

Here is the ring in question. It seems to fit my rope about as well as an atc and would have less rope twist. I have not tried it yet, but may give it a trial soon (for kicks). The reason for my initial question is that I always have one of these on me and it might be easier to use than a munter if my atc got dropped or eaten by a mountain lion.

JJ Brunner wrote: I started with very little instruction as well. I think my biggest problem is that I can't visualize the rap ring being very smooth and efficient. Although I've never tried it and don't own any rap rings. Sticht plates are designed like carabiners where the "spine" is taking the load in line with the direction of the pull (If that explanation makes any sense...) Rap rings are not designed this way and must be made much heavier and stronger for the same forces. I just think it'd be much more effective to bring a sticht plate along as a backup if you don't like the munter. Twists in the rope have never really been a big deal to me, then again, I'm the master and untangling ropes!

Agreed except for the weight and price thing this ring weighs less than a small biner and costs 4 bucks. I keep it in a spare biner with my trango knife and wedding ring when I climb (why not ask the experts on MP.com!).

rigged for possible (but slow) rappel.

And just for kicks, I was just barely able to squeeze it in for a rappel.