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Guided climbs

Original Post
Orphaned · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 11,560

I would like to know how people feel about hiring guides when in a new area. I am a travelling climber and have limited time in the mountains and I don't care to know how many days of climbing I have lost due to 1) Not being able to find the start of the climb 2) Finding the climb, but getting off route and having to bail 3) Finding and climbing the route and getting lost on the descent 4)Spending a cold night under a rock and wasting the next day catching up on sleep.

Hiring a local to fill you in on all of this is worth the cost to me because it will allow me to spend more time climbing. I have only resorted to hiring a guide once, but I had one of the most memorable outings ever. His comment was "Why did you hire me, you know more about climbing than I do", my reply was that "I don't have any local knowledge". I spent $200.

I haven't ever used the partner tool on here, but maybe try it this winter for ice.

jmeizis · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 230

That's one of the reasons I suggest my services to some people. When I first learned to climb I climbed with whoever I could get. I met a lot of cool people but also met some sketchy ones as well. Some areas are complex, lack informative guidebooks, and have some serious climbing.

If I'm new to an area I like to figure things out on my own but I have more time than money. If I had more money than time and I thought I could hire a guide who was comfortable swapping leads on climbs I wanted to do then I would do so. Guides make great partners, they're generally competent and skilled climbers with an eye for safety. Otherwise they would not hold onto their job for very long.

dan zika · · jax wy · Joined May 2009 · Points: 5

The more U rely on a guide the less U rely on yourself yer not gonna get mtn sense if u don't walk around some & learn 2 get around.For me that is half the adventure. So u don't get in allthe rts u wanted.
Looking at other stuff maybe you will see something u didn't plan on climbing. Its all about developing your own style or keep on paying my pals cause half of them r guides!!!

Forestvonsinkafinger · · Iowa · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 2,090

Probably worth the money if you have it. You may learn more about yourself as a climber from a local guide. Plus, they likely know the idiosyncracies of gear placement in the area as well as area ethics.

Mic Fairchild · · Boulder · Joined Jan 2003 · Points: 360

Hiring a local guide is usually a good idea. Not only for the reasons you listed, but also to be in a position to push your limits with a partner who can help you find the right place to do so in a new location. I've also climbed regularly with a couple clients after our business relationship ended.

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
Joe Lee wrote:I can't think of a single reason not to use a guide (if money is not an issue).
Tolkien wrote:Not all who wander are lost
I guess for me, and, I'd assume more than a few others, the self discovery thing, finding the base of a route, figuring out where to climb, being responsible for one's own safety and decisions, goes more to the essence of why I climb.

My opinion, but, when you hire a guide, you're not really a climber at that point. You're a client.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Tico · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 0

Have you ever been guided, Brian?

Nathan Stokes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 440

Being a professional road warrior that is fortunate to get sent for work close to interesting climbing areas I too pay for guide services. The benefits of a guide are many: Showing up with only my shoes, harness and belay device and being able to climb is the best one. I can squeeze my shoes and harness into my normal carry on without a problem. Trying to travel with my full rack and rope is a pain in the ...
The other reason is that an AMGA guide is supposed to have a pretty strong skill set to get certified and I trust that more than an unknown partner off a forum. There have been many threads about promiscuous climbing and its not something I'm comfortable with quite yet, especially trad, in an area I'm not familiar.
An AMGA guide won't let you lead, but I'm content to follow on harder routes than I would lead back home. The other thing about hiring a guide is their agenda is to keep their clients happy.

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
Tico wrote:Have you ever been guided, Brian?
Not climbing. Took a guided canyon trip in Venezuela for a day, though. Fun. Did manage to poke fun at the guide's nipple rings. Since the lead guide had two, and, his apprentice had none, I was curious when the feller was going to earn his, uhh, stripes.

We've debated it amongst ourselves a bit, especially folks I know who travel a bunch. It makes sense sometimes, for some people. I can see that.

Now, what appeals to me, is going out with a guide or someone to learn a skill. Then, taking that knowledge and applying it, sans guide.

But, for me, I've always thought I'd rather fail on a climb myself, than get hauled up something by a guide. Not that I'm opposed to friends hauling me up stuff.

Different strokes, I suppose.
jack roberts · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 0

I've just got to step in here for a moment and chit da chat.

I'm a professional guide. I've been full time running my own guiding businesses now for ten years and I was guiding part time five years before that. I've choosen this profession not for the perks, the pay or all the extra time I get to have off to pursue my own projects but because I honestly enjoy taking people out for a good time and helping them achieve their potential in climbing while keeping the risks down tothe minimum. My role as a guide changes some with every client who hires me. Sometimes they want a rope gun, sometimes they want a personal coach who will take them to the next level in their own climbing and other times they just want an equal partner who will size up their ability and allow them to share leads on a route when it is appropriate and safe.............I am no different from many other guides. We all wear many different hats.

I have to disagree with Brian. An experienced, skilled and conscientious guide treats the person who has hired him for the day as a partner, just one who has less expereince, confidence and ability from him/herself. Your reference to 'when you hire a guide, you're not really a climber at that point. You're a client", only has merit in that the guide looks out for and keeps his client out of harm's way but in most other ways the responsibilities are shared and comraderie develops. Guides recognize that clients are climbers too. It's not all hand-holding. At least not with me or with many guides I know. You do get the odd case of a guide doing it all for the client but that is usually not the choice of the guide. The client might just be too far out of their comfort zone. AS far as an AMGA guide not letting you lead, well that's not true. That decision is left up to the organization or company the guide works for and there is much variety on this. Some companies let their guides make that decision. Others say NO. I won't ever put my client in danger.......

Guides love what they do because if they become old and bitter no one wants to climb or hire them. Generally when you hire a guide for a day you are hiring someone who has more experience, fitness and intuitiveness than the "average climber" but who also loves to show off their home crag and favorite climbs. By hiring a guide you'll gain in knowledge having had a day of fun and maybe having accomplished routes you never thought you would be capable of ascending. You will always come back having learned much.

So, Slowtrad. You don't need to hire a guide in order to have fun and a safe adventure around here but you also won't be wasting your money.

Climb safe and have fun.

tomtom · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 0
Brian in SLC wrote: I guess for me, and, I'd assume more than a few others, the self discovery thing, finding the base of a route, figuring out where to climb, being responsible for one's own safety and decisions, goes more to the essence of why I climb.
So you don't buy guidebooks or read the internet for route beta.
Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
tomtom wrote: So you don't buy guidebooks or read the internet for route beta.
Sure I do. Tons and tons and tons of beta. And, I contribute to the beta too. Probably more than most.

How else you gonna know what hasn't been done? How you gonna know what the "classic" routes are?

Ha ha.

Almost bought a TomTom too. The GWB voice is hilarious. But, part of me wanted to read the map, try to understand the terrain, not just listen to a voice that said, "turn left in 20 metros, uhh, I mean meters" (in your best GWB voice).

Reading a guidebook and going to a crag/mountain is a tad different than being guided. At least for me it is.

A couple of examples SlowTrad gave for climbs he'd consider being guided on are Wolf's Head and the Buckingham. Pretty reasonable routes to suss out by reading a guidebook and looking at a map, IMHO. But, given that its easy to get off route, not be dailed in on the weather patterns, not know the pro options, not know which trail, which gully, not have access to a competant partner, etc etc etc, I can see why someone would use a guide.

But, part of the climbing process for me, is, figuring that stuff out. I enjoy it. Some folks don't or don't want to make time for it. And that's....ok.

I bet Jack knows the difference between a guide and a large pizza...
cjdrover · · Watertown, MA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 355
tomtom wrote: So you don't buy guidebooks or read the internet for route beta.
Not the same. Books and internet route beta will not step in to correct you if you make a bad call. I find an odd sense of satisfaction in knowing that I am my own safety net when making decisions in climbing.
Jim Amidon · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 850

I'd hire a guide every time I went out if I could afford it.......

I mean come on, does all the thinking/planning....brings all the right gear, knows the best places to climb and when to be there or not. Knows where and why to set up the belay....Leads everything

Hey wait a minuete......crap I do this each time I go climbing......

My wife doesn't know how lucky she is..

I'd love to have a rope above my head all the time.......

jack roberts · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 0

Some good points here. If self-discovery is what you seek in climbing then maybe a guide is not what you need. We grow by learning from the mistakes we make. Hopefully they won't kill us.

People who I guide on a regular basis hire me because I will make sure that they are challenged by taking on some of the risk and learning to manage that risk so they come back alive but feeling like they are renewed. I wouldn't want to always be taken by the hand and never put in a situation where all risk is removed but some of my clients are like that. Many hire me because they have enough challenges in their life and they want to relax............Others have learned from me and gone off seeking challenges of their own, which is very cool.

Having a guide all the time is like having a life coach at your disposal 24/7. If you use that person too much then you begin to be unable to make decisions on your own. You get soft. And then you risk becoming complacent. But it might be handy, once in awhile when the stakes are high, to be able to call that person and use their services.........if only once in a while.

And yes, the difference is that a large pizza can feed four people but it has to be a VERY large pizza! ....

Kevin Landolt · · Fort Collins, Wyoming · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 585

I feel very fortunate to have learned from a couple of AMGA-Certified Guides. Knowledge and passion goes a long ways.

JPVallone · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 195

I know some amazing guides, maybe arguably some of the best in the world and mentors, and they have been known to hire a local guide for a day or two when arriving to new areas, and dialing it in before bringing there own clients there.

Dan Zika says if you hire a guide you won't learn mountain sense. I have to strongly disagree with that, IMO that is one of the best things you can learn from a guide. Mountain sense is more important then your climbing skill IMO. Guides don't become guides without it for the most part. And a good guide is sharing it with you and getting you involved with the decision making process as well.

I wish I could afford a guide at times, I would love to pick local knowledge for a day and watch there style.

Jack made good points about not being able to lead with a guide, I don't care if its an AMGA guide or not, There are many channels and opportunities to swap leads with a guide or learn to lead with a guide that leads to actual leading.

I am a doer in my learning styles and I prefer to figure things out on my own as I did with my climbing. And the first few times I was doing some dumb things or needing assistance it was Amazing guides in the area that leant a few tips and gave me some amazing advice. for life. The late Great CL helped me on a climb he saw me having struggles with one day while learning to lead and in not the best style, I will never forget that experience and what he taught me that day. It was amazing that from that day on we became friends, then eventually a mentor and later a partner. He was one of the best and shared his passion like no other and saved many lives through his research and publications. Miss him everyday. Now if you have 200$ to spare the knowledge and experience you can gain from someone like CL or Jack and so many more that I don't have time to list, I think you will get more then your money's worth.

I never understood some peoples stand on being aggro towards guides. In the above mentioned scenario I wonder if local climbers would lend a hand in the situation I was in, or if they would just turn there head and say what a dipshit. I think I see that quite a bit, But I have seen guides step in and lend a helping hand when it's none of there business.

I know I have leant a few hands and assisted rescues in places over the years where if I wasn't around the parties I assisted would of been SOL. I became a guide because I am passionate about the sport, I love to learn, I love to teach, and I love to put people on the right path and set good examples. You could call it selling out if that is what you think, but I call it sharing something I am lucky enough to be able to do and in most cases I love introducing the sport.

I have clients that are just like the OP, they don't want to waste time while traveling or bring gear, they climb as hard as me and in some cases harder. They just want to go straight to the business, don't want to wind up guiding an unknown partner and want someone competent that has good mountains sense. Can you blame them if they have the money. In these cases and many others , Money is not as important as the time.

In the alps I know the terrain quite well, and I have been hired by other guides with there clients to cut to the chase and get to the good snow and where the conditions are stable because I am local to the area and know the snowpack. No time wasted and we can get right to the business. It's not an uncommon practice in Europe.

I have been guided and it's awesome.

Interesting thread, I ask those though that have never hired a guide, Do you really think there is nothing a guide can teach you, or is it just a money thing? And to be honest, I think I always learn something from every client I have ever had, it might not have anything to do with climbing either. What a bonus.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

I would never hesitate to hire a local guide for a reasonable price. All the cluster-fucking I've done in the past just to find a route would make it well worth it. I travel to climb not to dick around trying to find the route I want.

Bill M · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 317

If you can afford it why the hell not! Especially if you are spending all the $$$ to get somewhere cool and you have limited time. My one suggestion would be to find a good guide and then use them for multiple regions.

Garrett Soper · · Duluth, Minnesota · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 20
Craig Martin wrote:Of course you could learn from a guide and spend less time route finding and more time climbing. But at what cost? Is it a money thing? For some people yes, but for others it may actually have to do with cheapening the experience. I have never hired a guide and probably won't. I am too cheap and enjoy my experiences just the way they are. My best memories of climbing generally involve the mishaps as well as the accomplishments.
I'm not saying I would never hire a guide, I've considered it before but for me it's the money. I do have to go agree here though. Sometimes the climbs I accidentally end up on because I'm lost are really fun too.
John McNamee · · Littleton, CO · Joined Jul 2002 · Points: 1,690

People pay over a hundred bucks an hour for someone to fix their car, plumbing, etc, so what's the hang up with hiring a professional to teach you to climb, ski, etc.

Over my entire guiding career, whether climbing, ski touring or helicopter skiing, I always shared my experience with the "client." If you didn't learn anything from me, it was because you weren't listening or taking any notice.

When I wanted to learn how to ski bumps really well, it never crossed my mind to teach myself. I hired a professional.

Clients do not stay clients for long. Many of them have become close friends over the years and we stay in touch. I'm even heading down to NZ in a couple of weeks to visit one and climb a few pitches together without any money changing hands.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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