How easy is it...?

How easy is it really to break a B-rated shaft? Why would companies make modern technical ice tools with B-rated shafts?

Technical ice tools have "T" rated shafts. The stuff with "B" ratings really aren't for technical ice.

And they can be broken.

They are also useful for Heimlich maneuvers.

Some of the tech tools have B rated picks as well. They are thinner than the T rated picks (ie BD Laser vs Titan).

I understand that piolet tools can be B-rated and that T-rated shafts can come with B-rated picks, like the BD Reactor. I guess what I'm wondering is why Grivel would make a tool like the Grivel Quantum Tech, and make it so light that it has a B-rated shaft, which makes it of limited use for ice and mixed?

Lee Smith wrote: They are also useful for Heimlich maneuvers.

Since renamed the Smith Maneuver.

Lee Smith wrote:They are also useful for Heimlich maneuvers.

There's a story here if I remember correctly.

Believe it or not, they won't let us call it that anymore; but asking some hottie if I can thrust into her abdomen.... well actually now that I think about it

a technical tool with a B-rated shaft doesn't seem very practical. 1stly, i like a little weight for hard ice, otherwise the pick just bounces off. a lighter shaft would be most practical for mixed and alpine situation; however, alpine is exactly where you don't want the concern of a piece of gear failing. if going on a committing alpine route that i believe will have significant mixed ground, i often carry a back-up pick. if you had to carry a back-up shaft it might defeat the purpose of them being so light.
in mixed, ever watch your T-rated shaft flexing in a hard jam like a stein pull? wouldn't even dream of doing that with a $300 tool i thought might really snap.
seems like it would have very limited practical application. comps maybe?

p.s.--check out the jacked up BD fusion in the article by ian parnell in Alpinist #31!

Chris Plesko wrote:Some of the tech tools have B rated picks as well. They are thinner than the T rated picks (ie BD Laser vs Titan).

B rated picks like the laser arent as tough as the T rated titan picks. T rated would be better for Mixed since they can take more of an abuse, whereas Lasers are more for ice. Does that help?

Its pretty common if your not doing mixed for a T rated shaft to come with a B rated pick.

ALSO can we discuss how using a T rated shaft with a B rated pick as a 3rd point in an anchor hurts the system if at all? Would using a T rated pick make a difference or does the impact force not matter since it wont be torqued? I usually will throw in 2 screws and one of my tools into the ice and then equalize all 3 as part as my belay station. My partner uses the same tools as me so when he gets up, I grab one of his axes and start to lead, when im done he brakes it down and climbs on using my axe. So just curious if the B rated pick would make a huge difference in the use as an anchor point. I know not a lot of people like using there tool as an anchor point, but for those who do, have you ever thought about the ratings of the picks?

Garrett Soper wrote:How easy is it really to break a B-rated shaft? Why would companies make modern technical ice tools with B-rated shafts?

Sounds good that it is easy..

I climbed an ice fall last season with my viper tools that had B rated picks. There might have been a little bit of rock and there was a lot of snow. When I got off the last rappel my pick was bent about 30 degrees. I bent it back and it worked well the rest of the season.

coryred797 wrote: ...ALSO can we discuss how using a T rated shaft with a B rated pick as a 3rd point in an anchor hurts the system if at all? ...?

First of all this is completely unsupported conjecture from an unreliable source (AKA talking out of my ass).

I would assume that unless your pick has a pre-existing weakness, such as it being restraightened after bending it, that your tool would rip out of the majority of placements before the pick breaks.

I'm curious now, I'm going to see if I can find kN ratings for B rated picks...

"WHAT DO CE ICE-AXE REGULATIONS MEAN TO YOU?
All technical tools these days sold in Europe must pass minimum CE norms. The shaft of a technical tool must pass the T (technical) test, guaranteeing a minimum strength of 350kg. This is carried out by applying a load to the shaft as if it was being used in a snow belay, which although far from practical - after all you'd be hard pressed for an axe belay to hold more the 35kg - does mean that when you're jamming the shaft into cracks and standing on it, it should be up to the job.

Of far more importance is the pick rating, which is either denoted by a 'B' or 'T' stamped on the pick. The 'permanent deformation' test does not necessarily relate to practical application either; picks are clamped in a vice, a lever of 330mm (often the shaft of the tool itself) is used to apply 42 (B) or 60 (T) Newtons of force for 60 seconds. At the end of the test period the lever must not show more than 70mm of permanent deflection from its start position.

Unfortunately, most picks that are noted for their 'high performance' are B-rated, which suggests a contradiction between the best performance and the greatest strength. The 'cyclic fatigue' test applies only to T-rated picks, which must endure 50,000 flexes at the end of a 250mm lever in order to pass. What this means to you the climber is that B probably stands for 'bent' if used for full on and intensive mixed climbing, while T stands for 'Tourquer', aimed at some serious twisting.

Of course. this doesn't mean that if you climb mixed routes then you need a T-rated pick, just as climbing ice doesn't mean you need a B-rated pick. What it tells you is what they were intended for, meaning you take more care with a B-rated pick when it comes to a full-on horizontal torque. For the majority of climbers the best pick will no doubt be of the B variety, as this will work best on all terrains, but if your thing is mixed climbing, or you know you're a monster and have drawers full of broken picks then go with a T pick."

Andy Kirkpatrick's Psychovertical

Jack Cramer wrote:"WHAT DO CE ICE-AXE REGULATIONS MEAN TO YOU? All technical tools these days sold in Europe must pass minimum CE norms. The shaft of a technical tool must pass the T (technical) test, guaranteeing a minimum strength of 350kg. This is carried out by applying a load to the shaft as if it was being used in a snow belay, which although far from practical - after all you'd be hard pressed for an axe belay to hold more the 35kg - does mean that when you're jamming the shaft into cracks and standing on it, it should be up to the job.

But several technical Grivel tools, like the Quantum Tech and Quantum Race, are only rated as B shafts, to 280. Can these be sold in Europe? Are they meant, like someone said above, for only mixed comps and pure ice? Will the shafts bend like BD laser picks?