Climbing Attitudes

England wrote:If you think large groups suck at the crag, try ice climbing.

Ha, if that ain't the truth....

We can totally all play nice together. I don't mind sharing crags, and like meeting people. I just don't want to be forced out of an area, which has happened more than once. Leaves a sour taste in your mouth when you have to leave because a bus of people showed up and took over everything. No matter how you cut it, that's rather inconsiderate.

BUT, +1 to you Forestvonsinkafinger for giving a crap and trying to make things better!! Most guides I've met albeit very nice people, could really care less.

Dusty wrote:You guys are totally right, it's so lame when popular, easily accessible crags are crowded on the weekends... My advice (for whatever that is worth...): be more adventurous, be patient, or stay at home.

^This

What?! Lounging and Loafing at the Crag? How Dare They!

That has to be the funniest complaint.

Most of you have either forgotten where you came from, or were lucky enough to find someone to take you under their wing and were never born from these large climbing groups. So for alot of us that started climbing in the last 15 yrs especially from a University Outdoors Club, or even a college class we started climbing within these big groups. I'm not going to diss on any of these groups because I certainly started in this type of environment. The first time I went outside was on a weekday with my Intermediate Rock Climbing class to Pilot Mtn, NC and we built anchors and put topropes on every route we could find for part of our final exam. Luckily for others we were there on a weekday when hardly anyone except for local hikers were there that day.

The next couple of times I went outside was with the University Outdoors Club to the RRG in '96 when the guide book was a 1/4" thick and the only warmups were Mr. Bungle at Left Flank, Sunshine/Moonbeam at Military Wall, Creature Feature at Phantasia, and Mississippi Moon at the Pocket Wall(now closed). If there were any other groups you were out of luck, but this was just the nature of the beast back then.

With over 3,000 routes and WAY more beginner and moderate routes at the RRG than '96 on a busy weekend you may need to goto another crag instead of the same ole warmups that you probably already have dialed in anyway. Chances are climbing groups will not be at some of the more unknown walls which have plenty of good routes especially at the RRG.

Yes I personally get bummed when I see large groups of climbers, but it's pretty easy to get a feel for how large those crowds are when you drive by Military Wall/Left Flanks parking lot and it's already full by 10am. If I see that I pull off the side of the road and check out the guidebook for an area that I haven't been to before and go there instead. Try going to Orange Oswald at Summersville Lake at the NRG at 11am. Either get there by 8am and get a few warmups in, or go check out Endless Wall which is most definitely devoid of anyone even on the busiest weekends. The early bird catches the worm, or in this case the early bird didn't stand in line at The Cathedral Cafe, or around Miguel's BS'n with everyone trying to figure out where everyone else is going. Chances are they are probably warming up on these large climbing parties projects.

There are those that feel the need to group up, be part of something that they wouldn't have the guts to do on their own, even though I started climbing for exactly the opposite of these reasons. Personally I feel that a large group would be better served by breaking into small groups and giving each person a more "individual" experience. But, there are those that need to herd, lemming like and have an audience to show off their skills or gain courage from the masses around them.

That being said, whenever I've encountered a group like this, I often have ended up adventuring out on some new route that I hadn't previously considered, and ended up experiencing an even better time than if I'd climbed at the "same ole" destination that I was originally headed to.

jarthur wrote:Most of you have either forgotten where you came from, or were lucky enough to find someone to take you under their wing and were never born from these large climbing groups. So for alot of us that started climbing in the last 15 yrs especially from a University Outdoors Club, or even a college class we started climbing within these big groups. I'm not going to diss on any of these groups because I certainly started in this type of environment. The first time I went outside was on a weekday with my Intermediate Rock Climbing class to Pilot Mtn, NC and we built anchors and put topropes on every route we could find for part of our final exam. Luckily for others we were there on a weekday when hardly anyone except for local hikers were there that day. The next couple of times I went outside was with the University Outdoors Club to the RRG in '96 when the guide book was a 1/4" thick and the only warmups were Mr. Bungle at Left Flank, Sunshine/Moonbeam at Military Wall, Creature Feature at Phantasia, and Mississippi Moon at the Pocket Wall(now closed). If there were any other groups you were out of luck, but this was just the nature of the beast back then. With over 3,000 routes and WAY more beginner and moderate routes at the RRG than '96 on a busy weekend you may need to goto another crag instead of the same ole warmups that you probably already have dialed in anyway. Chances are climbing groups will not be at some of the more unknown walls which have plenty of good routes especially at the RRG. Yes I personally get bummed when I see large groups of climbers, but it's pretty easy to get a feel for how large those crowds are when you drive by Military Wall/Left Flanks parking lot and it's already full by 10am. If I see that I pull off the side of the road and check out the guidebook for an area that I haven't been to before and go there instead. Try going to Orange Oswald at Summersville Lake at the NRG at 11am. Either get there by 8am and get a few warmups in, or go check out Endless Wall which is most definitely devoid of anyone even on the busiest weekends. The early bird catches the worm, or in this case the early bird didn't stand in line at The Cathedral Cafe, or around Miguel's BS'n with everyone trying to figure out where everyone else is going. Chances are they are probably warming up on your these large climbing parties projects.

I was going to reply, but this is exactly what I would have written. Big +1.

I was "president" of Va Tech's climbing club for two years and we did our best to keep our group sizes small at the crags, even if the whole group we took was large.

Jason Atkins wrote:I have seen an abundance of rude, elitist, and entitlement behavior since I started climbing than any other activity I have participated in.

I guess you don't fly fish

The answer: train, climb harder, then go to the Motherlode. Where there are moderates, there will be people. Where there are projects, there will mostly be a respectful hush. In between screaming wobblers anyway!

Evan Simons wrote: I guess you don't fly fish

...Or surf

caughtinside wrote: The big groups string up ropes and leave them there. You want to climb it, you ask, then there is loud questioning around the crag "Hey, did all 14 people get on this yet?"

this may be one of the most annoying aspects of groups. Group leader should be mindful of this and pull any rope not in use. IMO

The second most annoying aspects of groups is the tendency to put someone on a route many many levels beyond their ability. As they fall dozens and dozens of times the belayer pulls tighter and tighter essentially hoisting them up the rock just so they can reach the top. I'm all for pushing ones limits but that is not what this is. This is not climbing in my opinion. "not every monkey gets to climb ever tree" (TB).

You don't see mountain bikers setting up tow ropes to pull their buddy up the steep technical section of the trail.

Just my opinion.

George Perkins wrote:Out of courtesy, large organized groups with a planned schedule to occupy/"take over" small or popular crags with few other nearby options might do well to post a comment or post on Mountain Project or other sites, so that others may plan accordingly.

A few MPer's have done that, which was very nice of them. Of course the world doesn't revolve around MP, but the gesture is highly appreciated!! Especially as one time was Lincoln Falls...the Bowling Alley!! {{{{shudder}}}}}

England wrote:If you think large groups suck at the crag, try ice climbing.

It's really not that much a problem as long as you steer clear of the awesomeness

jarthur wrote:Most of you have either forgotten where you came from...

Definitely a +1.

I suspect that most of those doing the complaining also complain that newer climbers are rude and dangerous and uncool because they learned to climb in a gym...

I learned in a group of twenty+ on a weekend at Taylors Falls MN. A lot less people in 1975 but still we had a lot of ropes up. Our guide and my climbing mentor told us that if anyone not in our group wants to do the route let them do it. If we have a ton of folks I always tell folks they are welcome to TR or we will happily pull the rope so they can lead it. I usually tell them that as they are walking up which immediately puts them at ease and diffuses any tension. That's pretty much how we all roll down here on the Lemmon.

Evan Simons wrote: I guess you don't fly fish

Or golf.

I think that anywhere in the country you can find a quiet place to climb on any given day. You just can't be lazy.

There is a place in the western Sierra Nevada that rivals Tuolomne Meadows. Just not quite as large. Anyway, went there on a fine weekend in July and just did some easy soloing. Saw a route I wanted to do roped and went to every crag/dome/cliff in the area over the next day and a half looking for a partner. NOT A SINGLE CLIMBER IN THE PLACE! It was definitely a good news/bad news situation. I just did some more easy solos and had a great weekend...never did see another climber.

caughtinside wrote: Why the need to roll so deep?

Part of it I think is that it's a 12 hour drive from iowa to the red (according to one of them). That's a lot of car time. Not like where you just go out and climb for a couple hours. Give thanks if you have rock "right up the road".

George I agree.

P LaDouche wrote: #1- big groups are lame anywhere besides a gym #2- most guides suck balls and are climbing for the wrong reasons and should stay in the gym #3- big groups suck #4- your last statement is so very true, the problem is the guides taking them out suck balls and arent smart enough to know this because they have climbed in the gym too much. #5- lame guides and big groups suck, most real climbers hate them

-10

The statements you've made in this post imply that you are quite ignorant. Guides "suck balls?" At one point you were guided whether it was your friend or brother who took you out climbing for the first time. You've made a severely generalized statement about a group of people who, for the most part, do the world of climbing a favor by sharing their knowledge with others who are open and willing to learn. True, large groups can be frustrating but what's more frustrating is attempting to be accepted by a seemingly close minded community with the likes of you throwing these stereotypes in every direction and not taking the time to look at these situations in a positive manner. Whether or not your statements were intended to be facetious they were completely out of line.

Forestvonsinkafinger wrote:It was at roadside that we ran into rudely impatient people

Don't know if I am one you refer to or not - I crossed paths with your group several times at Roadside last Saturday. I don't just want to blindly pile on the big groups suck band wagon - most of the obvious (yard saleing gear hither and yawn, taking up prime positions for walking and belaying, talking too loudly so you can't perform crucial communications - just generally being cluelesss) have been mentioned - and they can be handled via a little up front education - no biggie. My pet peeve is when a big group monopolizes a popular moderate reasonably protected (and the definition of "moderate" and "reasonable" are context specfic) frequently led rope with gumby top ropers. In way over their heads - not a prayer in hell of getting up the thing cleanly but pawing with their muddy feet over and over on the first few feet (gee the start is polished - wonder why?) and then turning it over to the next gumby. Process goes on for hours. So two things:
1. Leader's have priority (I know the goody two shoes crowd will have a coniption over this).
2. Put the gumbies on stuff they can handle - you are not doing any body and favors - least of all them - by hoisting them up a few feet so they can say they are "working 10s"). Contrary to what you think that is not the way to improve.

Eric Engberg wrote:1. Leader's have priority.

Nope, first party on the route has priority. If someone is on 'your' route, be patient or climb something else.