Poll: Climber knowledge

Worse
somewhat
25

1) same

2) nope

3) 15, on and off

It is of course the deepest heresy to suggest that the prevalence of climbing gyms has not resulted in a rash of GymNoobs (TM) rushing lemming-like off every cliff in the land, but in my experience it simply isn't true.

Almost every accident I've heard about in the last few years in Cali (and boy do they ever get discussed at length) hasn't been caused some naive gymrat ignorant in the art of french prussiks, but has been caused by an otherwise competent and experienced climber cutting corners, not paying attention or just plain screwing up; same as we all do sometimes and thankfully get away with it).

Sure, maybe there are more inexperienced climbers around at some crags (for example Kalymnos' bastard brother, Malibu), but for all the iffy belaying they seem to stay well within their skill level. Pretty much like me, and you, and everyone else when we started.

The automatic assumption that every accident was a GymNoob (TM) cock-up is just intellectual laziness, a way of drawing a line between ourselves and the poor sap involved marked 'this wouldn't happen to me because...', a way of avoiding some difficult questions about our own practices and attention to detail.

The first guy who replied to the OP concerning climbing practices in the last decade hasn't even been climbing for a decade; the response just indicates how self-satisfied most climbers seem to feel once they've mastered the skills to their own satisfaction. I'd sooner go out for a day at the crag with an inexperienced climber who is honest about their own frailties than some tutting twit making notes in his clipboard because someone is toproping his girlfriend with an equalized knot rather than a sliding-x, or whatever this weeks goddamn accepted practice is.

Breakin' the law!... or rather the word count rule. I'm going to base my answer on median climber instead of average.

1) Worse
2) No
3) 17

As stated above, one can't really make sense of the climbing accidents without relating them to climberdays and % of the population climbing. I will say that this year definitely gut feels like a relatively high accident rate here in CO. Is this sample an outlier or just one of the occasional blips on the upper end of the distribution? Don't know; but I do believe that given the increased number of climbers out and about each week, I think the accidents:climberdays ratio is going down.

One contributing factor to what I feel is a general increase in basic "judgement-preventable" type of accidents (if you could categorize accidents into such bins), is the sharp decline in mentoring within the climbing community. Many folks nowadays take an intro course (at college or wherever), and then go out into the wilds with a bunch of similarly inexperienced folks. Technically they know how to lock biners, use proper belay technique under perfect circumstances, clip a rope, etc., but they haven't been mentored in the judgment aspects of climbing, or some of the one-off 'tips' that get passed down among climbers but which aren't part of a basic rock climbing courses (or are found in basic books). As a result, I believe a significant percentage start repeating many of the trial/error mistakes that many of us who had mentors avoided simply by having folks talk us through scenarios based on experience (either their own, or that of their mentors).

Anyway, let's all be safe out there. Triple check your rap setups, be willing to back off routes, remember the rope is a bond with your climbing partner and that they are counting on you, and please don't hesitate to advise a climber on proper technique/judgment if you see them doing something unwise - even if they are a complete stranger.

1) same
2) somewhat
3) 18

brentapgar wrote: I think that academically, new climbers have access to more information and also have the most technically advanced equipment since climbing first began.

brentapgar wrote: I think that climbers, for a variety of reasons, (climbing media, general publics perception of what climbing is, popularity of climbing and "extreme" sports in general.) are putting themselves in situations where they get in over their heads.

I would mostly tend to agree with Brent about this, though I don't really think this is a new phenomenon. Despite better equipment (yes, some of the key equipment IS better today -- cams and especially microcams didn't really exist 35+ years ago which makes climbing in places like Eldo one HELL of a lot safer), some climbers just don't "get it"; i.e., they never develop the intuitive sense for how the equipment works and are always therefore an accident waiting to happen. But this was just as true 35 years ago as it is today.

EDIT: There seems to be an assumption in this thread that with the proper training or mentoring or experience or whatever that ANYONE out there can become technically competent and theoretically safe. It just ain't so.

1) Same
2) Somewhat (I agree that climbing accidents are typically comprised of several contributing factors, not just one thing)
3) 20 years tech climbing, 36 mountaineering.

1. worse, people get sloppy/overconfident
2. kind've
3. 3

1. worse
2. somewhat

I think the #1 reason for the increase in accidents is the "Keep up with the Jonses" mentality that has taken over climbing the past couple of decades. Who can I impress? Look at me and what I did/am doing. Spray on internet. Climbing above capabilities and getting in over their heads due to peer pressure...etc. You get my drift.

My answers to the original questions have no basis, as I have only climbed for 6 years. However, the notion that all climbers from my generation learned to climb in a gym is not entirely true. I was taught by an experienced friend. I followed trad for years before I ever stepped foot in a gym, and learned to place gear by climbing tons of easy routes.

It may be an unjustified assumption, but I feel like a significant number of the serious accidents I've read about this year and last year involved highly experienced climbers (20+ years). Though as stated by many, this debate has little value without proper stats and estimating the increasing number of climbers out there every year as a basis for comparison, seems like a tall order.

1. worse
2. definitely, in my opinion related to the huge increase in gym climbing (e.g. sketchy belay technique)
3. on/off for 16+ years (wow I feel old)

worse
somewhat
31 years

better
somewhat

6 years

Bob Packwood wrote:1) Better Regarding #1: I think folks are more knowledgeable technically, but less in tune with the outdoors, with weather, with nature.

Perfectly said. I think this lack of connection to the outside in general is more a culprit to accidents than hard skills.

Also, I definetly think skills have gotten better. Especially, when you consider that what consitutes "techinical proficiency" is inherently better now due to research and axperience gained knowledge.

Oh, and about 6-7 years of active outside climbing.

Evan

1.C
2.F
3.8

Working at the rock gym, I get this question often. "So like how much does it cost to get all your own stuff to do this on your own like outside?"

1) same
2) somewhat
3) 36 years

What is the annual accident rate as apercentage of the climbing populace? I don't get the feeling of any increase in the rate of accidents. For anyone who hasn't read it, I recommend Laurence Gonzalez' excellent book Deep Survival; his observations about adaptability and attitude under extreme stress are essential knowledge for anyone who willfully takes risks.

1. Better
2. Nope
3. 18

It seems pretty obvious to me that the increased number of accidents is due to the increased number of climbers. Climbing is risky plain and simple. And it doesn't matter what technology you develop or what new skills are created people are still going to get injured and die. This country seems to be obsessed with trying to make everything safe but you can't fix human error and natural disasters.

More climbers not recieving proper training and they have a more relaxed view/mentality on safety and proper techique

1. worse
2. definitely
3. 9

how many is "several years"? What does # years experience have to do with correct/proper/safe technical knowledge?

Darren Mabe wrote:how many is "several years"? What does # years experience have to do with correct/proper/safe technical knowledge?

Absolutely nothing at all to do with that. But, it does have to do with my question about historical observations. It's vague. Intentionally.

Avery N wrote: Absolutely nothing at all to do with that. But, it does have to do with my question about historical observations. It's vague. Intentionally.

ah. cool!