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Using crash pads for scary leads?

Original Post
Dylan Colon · · Eugene, OR · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 491

So..., who here has thrown a pad or three under a scary lead project? I know it has been controversial to do so, especially on some of the more famous headpoints that have been done (e.g. James Pearson's The Promise, repeated with a pad, the use of which Pearson seemed to disparage). Is it cheating to do so, poor style, or neither, sound off.

Personally I feel that they could be justified by considering them to be particularly bulky pro, just the first thing you place. Also, I have never done it or strongly considered it, I'm just curious about what people think.

Nick Przybysz · · Boulder, CO · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 45

Seems like an ok idea to me if you want to lug a pad up as well. Just think of it as another piece of pro. If you are going to fall, you obviously are not going to flash the route, so might as well not injure yourself so you can try again.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

It would simply be better style not to use one. "Takes away from the true seriousness of the route" I believe Pearson said.

Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,280

Old school trad was just to toss your packs and jackets under the threat of that fall. Seems the same if you wanna haul the pad these days.

jack roberts · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 0

It's not cheating. It's just better style to do without.

eric larson · · aurora, co · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 50

well, if you have one available then I guess just ask yourself what's more important- your ego, or your ankles?

I've done it. Same reason I stick-clip most climbs if I have one available.

I can't see how having a crash pad changes the "style" but maybe I just don't climb hard enough to see it.

Chris Plesko · · Westminster, CO · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 485

It's more bold without, whatever that means for style.

I'll put a pad up if I really want to climb a route but want to stack the "don't get injured" odds in my favor as much as possible.

Bapgar 1 · · Out of the Loop · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 90
eric larson wrote:well, if you have one available then I guess just ask yourself what's more important- your ego, or your ankles?
+1
Guess that I would rather spend more time climbing and stack the odds in my favor than take the chance and have to deal w/ the down time recovering from an injury.
Am I saying that it doesn't change the style or the mental factor...absolutely not. But how you play the game is up to you.
1Eric Rhicard · · Tucson · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 10,101

It is a personal choice. If you don't want to take the risk then don't. It is not the same climb mentally however and that is one of the cool things about repeating scary trad. So I wouldn't go around saying I did said route without making it clear that I did it with a pad or pre-inspected gear placements etc. Why, it isn't the same. If it was people wouldn't be asking the question. If you want to compare yourself to others then you have to be honest with yourself.

I guess using a pad on a route that it wasn't originally used on is a little like using micro cams or Ball Nuts or some other innovation that wasn't used when a route first went up. If you really want to repeat a route in the same "style" so you can say to yourself you did it, perhaps the way to do it is to use the same gear.

Stick clipping where it allows you to avoid a scary hard or placement cheats you of the experience. It is a little like putting extra long draws at the anchors so you can skip the final move and claim the redpoint. That is bogus for me. FOR ME.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
Eric Rhicard wrote:It is a personal choice. If you don't want to take the risk then don't. It is not the same climb mentally however and that is one of the cool things about repeating scary trad. So I wouldn't go around saying I did said route without making it clear that I did it with a pad or pre-inspected gear placements etc.... I guess using a pad on a route that it wasn't originally used on is a little like using micro cams or Ball Nuts or some other innovation that wasn't used when a route first went up. If you really want to repeat a route in the same "style" so you can say to yourself you did it, perhaps the way to do it is to use the same gear...FOR ME.
Rather fuzzy line you draw. When was the last time you summitted a peak in cowboy boots or wore felt soled shoes? Is it still a send if you don't place the exact same gear that the FA placed? I know we're kindof saying the same thing.

I guess i really just want to say that placing a crashpad under the start of a trad climb really just makes you a boulderer.

Go do this one in cowboy boots with 1940's pro:
mountainproject.com/v/utah/…
CJ Coccia · · Denver, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 35

hell...if you have a pad and are worried about decking then go for it. personally who cares if you placed a pad to prevent potentially being out for weeks. you're still doing the same climb and experiencing the same moves. i see climbing more as experiencing the movements and the climb itself as opposed to another tick that was made with or without a crash pad.

however if you were to stack 10 crash pads up to skip the first couple moves...different story =)

redlude97 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 5

why not just top rope it...same moves right?

Jason Kaplan · · Glenwood ,Co · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 3,370

It would have been nice to have a couple when I decked from 10'up on a ledge at the start of the second pitch of knight with a shining stick. I had the first fixed head blow out as I tried to place my first head ever on a contrived chiseled A4 heading route. no fun.

BTW Eric that comment about ball nuts etc. is pretty lame IMO. hard clean aid wouldn't exist with out hybrids, ball nuts, cam hooks and screamers/ scream aids. I guess you think it's cool to continue to abuse the rock just so you can say you really got an ascent.

Kevin Stricker · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 1,197

So it is good form for the FA party to pre-inspect, clean and ruthlessly wire the route on TR before going for the send.

Bad form to show up with a pad and go for it ground up.

Interesting world we live in.......

1Eric Rhicard · · Tucson · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 10,101
Jason Kaplan wrote:BTW Eric that comment about ball nuts etc. is pretty lame IMO. hard clean aid wouldn't exist with out hybrids, ball nuts, cam hooks and screamers/ scream aids. I guess you think it's cool to continue to abuse the rock just so you can say you really got an ascent.
Didn't say it was cool to abuse the rock. My point was that leading a route today with that kind of gear is not the same as leading it on the old stuff and I don't mean pins. Guys that did R routes without the Ball Nut that now makes one section safe had something I didn't. Guts or confidence in their ability or less sense than I have.
CJ Coccia · · Denver, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 35

its climbing people! what does it matter that you have more access to gear or didnt climb it with cowboy boots. the progression of gear has only been made to give us a safer experience. we dont climb to get hurt and to compare ourselves to people from the 40s...we climb for the experience of the route.

Lanky · · Tired · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 255

Julian's no-fail process:

1. Climb route using whatever equipment and style you wish, so long as it fits with the local ethic, minimizes (additional) damage to the rock and environment, and does not negatively impact access. Be honest with yourself about the compromises you make.

2. When you talk about your ascent, be honest about your methods.

3. Remember that there are many perspectives and many shades of gray in our little world. Be open to learning from others' perspectives. Realize that folks may have a lot of (justifiable) pride in authorship if they're the first ascensionist and accept their critique of your style in good spirit if you're comfortable with your methods and have followed step one.

4. Repeat.

Joel Andersen · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2008 · Points: 10

Not using one when the landing allows for it--and you're worried about a nasty groundfall--is contrived. Bolder? Yes. Natural? No. It'd be like skipping a key placement on an E6 just for the sake of calling it E8. That's dumb as hell.

Joel Andersen · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2008 · Points: 10
CJ Coccia wrote:its climbing people! what does it matter that you have more access to gear or didnt climb it with cowboy boots. the progression of gear has only been made to give us a safer experience. we dont climb to get hurt and to compare ourselves to people from the 40s...we climb for the experience of the route.
Actually, people can climb for whatever reason they want, despite what you say.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

julian's method sounds pretty good to me.

CJ Coccia · · Denver, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 35
Joel Andersen wrote: Actually, people can climb for whatever reason they want, despite what you say.
All I'm saying is that in my opinion I thought we all got into climbing because of the enjoyment of being on the wall. Not for the sake of placing ticks comparable to the FA's. This is how it is for me atleast. Besides for figuring out beta, it seems that climbing becomes more fun when you are worrying about your own climbing and not somebody elses from some other previous time.

This is how it is for me...not saying everybody has to share this point of view. If I'm seriously concerned about seriously decking from an early placent then I'll place a pad...hypothetically.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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