Grad School/Law School Recommendations for a Climber

Mike Anderson wrote: If that's the case, then I wouldn't worry too much about having lots of free time to climb.

you know, University of Hawaii at Manoa has great surfing.

Not that I get out on a regular basis, but... When you need it there's always water time.

As someone who just finished my second year at VLS, I think I should contribute my two cents.

As a law student, I find that the people who get the best grades are generally the most unhappy because they work the hardest. That's not a hardline rule, just my observation and there are always exceptions. That being said, I do well in school (Top 1/3 of my class), study environmental law (Energy law, the only type of law I think worth studying) and climb/ski/hike at least 3 days a week. I try to maintain a healthy balance of academics and recreation because that's what life is all about, balance.

Vermont is a great place to do this. While VLS is not Harvard or Yale, it does offer certain advantages is extremely competitive in terms of environmental niche jobs and government jobs which also provide the opportunities for a healthy work/play balance. During the summer I climb at Rumney, Smuggler's Notch, or Bolton at least 3 days a week. During the winter I ice climb or ski at Killington at least 3 days a week. Vermont does not have the sheer size of some of the western states, but it offers a diverse array of activities on a more than adequate scale to keep you busy.

One should work very hard in school and climb after.
School is very important for becoming a contributing part of society. Climbing is just for fun.

While I can't comment on specific schools because

a) Law school is dependent almost entirely on where you can get in, and

b) Polisci phd programs (or any, for that matter) will be predominantly determined by finding a department that matches your interests and, again your academic qualifications,

I really have to pipe in that it is lunacy to claim that your years in school will or should be free from pursuits away from school. I'm not a law student myself (PhD student, here), but I know plenty of the JD variety, and they all have time for extracurricular stuff. Many of them have found significant others, maintain (sometimes extensive) hobbies, and have burgeoning social lives while doing well at top schools. In fact, I'd bet that the folks on here who claimed that school was time for education - and education alone - went out to complain about school over beer a couple of times a week, and maybe even met some women.

Rare are the days that are so full that there's only time to eat, sleep, and work. The attitude that you must work work work, study study study every waking moment only serves to engender frustration, burnout, and major learning plateaus. It's perfectly reasonable to be a successful PhD, Law, or Med student and devote 10+ hours a week to some pursuit outside of your studies (except for the occasional week of deadlines)- with, I'd argue, no detrimental effect on your academic life whatsoever. It is a terrible waste, and lousy for your mental health, to spend hour after hour staring unproductively at papers because school is "supposed" to be busy. I have trouble structuring myself in an unstructured environment (like, err, a PhD program), and I find that cycling, climbing, and skiing actually help me structure my days and make me more productive.

Ok, now my ramble must end - my schedule for the day had 9p as gym time, and I'm 20 minutes late :)

It is not a matter of putting school in front of recreation. It is a matter of focusing one's energies on the important things for future growth. By spending time climbing/recreating instead of learning the vast and nuanced practice of law, this individual is allowing himself to become mediocre in his chosen field and is deceiving future generations.

This is a no-brainer Mark:
F' law school and go become a man. Pick up a basic trade, join a fishing crew, sign up with the Marines, join a traveling Mexican circus. . . anything that makes little 'ol farm ladies smile, and helps you to stand up straight and face the world like a man.

"A physician, an engineer and a lawyer were arguing about whose profession was the oldest.

The surgeon announced, "Remember how God removed a rib from Adam to create Eve? Obviously, medicine is the oldest profession."

The engineer replied, "But before that, God created the heavens and the earth from chaos, in less than a week. You have to admit that was a remarkable feat of engineering, and that makes engineering an older profession than medicine."

The lawyer smirked, and said, "Who do you think created the chaos?""

Gawd I love this new Frank character. Keep it up Franky, ya big dope - yer crackin me up yo.

What's the limit of not recreating in order to learn the vast and nuanced practice of law, or, for that matter, and vast and nuanced field?

Why is school the only time during which recreating is shortchanging oneself? After all, there are plenty of learning opportunities throughout one's career - by your logic, shouldn't one always eschew recreation in order to avoid working mediocrity?

More troubling is the notion that personal growth occurs only when working on academic problems, and that additional time spent on academic pursuits invariably boost performance and knowledge. I'm a bit of a physics buff, so the (counter)examples that come to mind are from that realm. Robert Oppenheimer spent long stretches of time each year in the New Mexico desert (in fact, that's why Los Alamos is what it is), most of it riding across the mesas on horseback. Feynman spent lots of time not working or working on problems he describes as silly, entirely out of fancy, in times he was unproductive. Our brains can't just be crammed full of information or produce valuable work perpetually... regular time away from work can most certainly boost productivity and learning.

While there's admittedly likely a selection bias, I'd be willing to bet that there's a reasonably strong positive correlation between college GPA and extracurricular involvement. A great many successful people don't live life singularly focused on a single project or goal; life is not a zero-sum game, and skipping the joys of life in a myopic attempt to improve one's academic plight seems overwhelmingly foolish.

wait.... did I just get trolled?

Mark Kauz wrote:I agree that I'll probably not have a ton of time to climb, but being from Madison area, we don't have a lot of world class sport around and while people love Devil's Lake, its not necessarily my thing.

Garrett Soper wrote: Haha, I don't think we would be very good friends. That's all I have.

UCLA or USC in California.

There is literally every type of climbing in every direction... and you can comfortably climb every day of the year. Oh, and surf, and... well, the list is limitless. You just gotta get over the traffic.

Rick Accomazzo,Randy Vogel Two names that come to mind, accomplished at both disciplines

Mark Kauz wrote: Hahah. I don't know. I'm good friends with Rhoads, and he's the guy to go to for sketchy trad at the Lake. I climb there because its there, and it gets me to work on technique, but its not my style. I climb big dynamic powerful sport if at all possible.

Garrett Soper wrote: Haha I'm just joking around. You could go to Redwing or Grandads or Necedah for more sporty and powerful routes while you are here.

If you can get into a top 5 law school, you should go there. Will give you more options once you graduate. The legal market is very very tight right now. Lots of law students are graduating and not finding work.

If you can't get into a top 5 school, and want easy access to climbing while in school, then go to CU Boulder, or the University of Utah.

I'll talk to the PoliSci gig a bit since I'm entering a grad program this fall. The first thing you have to decide is whether you want to go the PhD route or the professional route (ie. MPP, MPA). If you do the PhD route, first off you better be sh*t hot with respect to grades and GRE scores with killer letters of rec because if you can't get into a top ten program with funding, then it's not worth wasting your time. The PhD PoliSci market is WAY tighter than the law market and the only way you're going to be competitive for most academic research jobs is with a brand name school on the diploma AND a serious publishing record. Schools with top Poli Sci PhD programs are the usual suspects: Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Berkeley, UCLA, UChicago, and a few others.

The MPP/MPA route is similar to the MBA route except that its focus is on the public sector. These offer a wide variety of opportunities particularly since there are plenty of jobs to be had in government right now. For a Middle East guy with Arabic skills, you'd have your pick of jobs. But as with PhDs, having a brand name school matters if you want to get in the door of the best gov jobs, NGOs, IGOs, and the like. If you go this route you're also really going to want to get anywhere between 2-4 yrs work experience before grad school since you won't be competitive for most of the top programs without it. Top schools are Johns Hopkins SAIS, Columbia SIPA, Harvard Kennedy School, Princeton Woodrow Wilson School, Tufts Fletcher, Georgetown SFS, and a few others.

Thankfully for us climbers, most of these schools have access to climbing to greater or lesser degrees. I'll be headed to Columbia myself this fall and will have the Gunks close by. If you have any questions about the whole Poli Sci gig feel free to PM me.

Hi Mark,

I just finished my second year at University of Arizona law school. I love it down here. I work pretty hard, get good grades, and climb once a week. Third year I should be able to climb a bit more--my load will be a little lighter. One of the great things about this area for climbing is that there are literally only about 3-4 days the entire year where climbing is not possible. So even though you may only be climbing once a week, you'll be doing so throughout the winter. The climbing is great and extensive here, both trad and sport--you definitely won't run out of good routes to do.

As to the school, U of A law is pretty good--around 40th or something--second tier. I chose it over a better law school based on money and location--no regrets about that and I have pretty good leads now for jobs after I graduate. Environmental law program is strong here too as far as I can tell.

All that being said, I agree 100% with the other people that you should take some time off before law school and do something interesting and totally different (i.e. don't take time off and work as a paralegal). Either way, feel free to pm me if you have any questions.

Mark Kauz wrote: I climb big dynamic powerful sport if at all possible.