Adding bolts to existing routes

Mike Anderson wrote: I've had this conversation with Jeff a few times, and I'm not going to speak for him other than to say, you assume too much. I know of at least two cases where Jeff did exactly this in Zion (the aforementioned Wind, Sand, and Stars, and Moonlight Buttress), and it wouldn't surprise me if there were other places where he had done the same thing.

mucci wrote:" I would ask yourself what would Layton Kor do, Or Jeff Lowe" They Definitely would not be repeating their route to ADD bolts!

Brian in SLC wrote: As well as give someone (cough cough) permission to add bolts to another of his lines in Zion, eh?

Mono,

Sorry about that. It's at the confluence of the Green and Yampa rivers. In a place called Echo Park. Not only that but it's reported to be about 800 ft. Not really a tower, but a nice huge piece of rock that is vertical on one side. Echo park is a very cool place to visit but the rock is crumbly in most areas.

I have done that many times cus I knew no one would want to climb the route unless I fixed it up... go for it. Your the artist until others start enjoying it.

We recently had a great discussion here in Durango about this very subject. See it at mountainproject.com/v/color…

Jack,

What up!! Where did that vehemence come from?

Your outrage at someone adding a few more bolts to his own route is reminiscent of the homophobes frothing at the mouth at the idea of same sex marriage. WTF difference does it make in your life if he puts in a few more bolts or two guys want to get married. None at all!! So take a valium and stop trying to push your morals and ideals onto someone else.

It's your route, Nate, add as many bolts as you damn well please.
If Jack and his ilk don't like it, they can do their own routes in whatever style that turns their crank.

Well, at least I got a rise out of the "peanut galley".

I'll attempt to be more civil.

I think that ethically you are on firm grounds if you are the first ascensionist and want to add bolts to your climb. I think it's a shame to do that because unless the climb is really poor, It's nice to leave climbs they way they are so other rock climbers can have their own adventure without having too much pro.

I do think it's strange for someone to ask for public opinion if they have made their mind up that they are going to do what they want regardless of what that public opinion is.

I felt like the tone of Nate's letter deserved a sarcastic reply.

Now I'll return to the milk bar...................

Well, yes. That is always the difficulty in deciding to retro bolt a route that has stood up to and been enjoyed by others. Who has the right to decide the style of the route? The FA party or the local climbing community.

There really aren't rules per say, but tradition has allowed the FA climbers to go back and change the number of bolts on the route. If the route in question has been getting some traffic and others don't want more bolts to be added OR want additional bolts then usually a public forum (like this one) forms. No time frame exists. Could be a couple of weeks or it could be years.

But if the FA party are going to bolt regardless of what others think then traditionally the local climbing community have allowed this OR maybe the FA party don't really care what anyone else thinks and they do what they want to do anyway despite others objections because it's their creation.

it's unethical if you don't post a topo, photo, or lat/long coordinates. (and a minimal rack)

As someone who has gone back and added bolts, and also once retro bolted a FA which I had forgotten I'd climbed 13-14 years before with gear, I have no room to give you any advice except this:

All of use combined know less about this route than you do. You know the route: just do the right thing.

__________________________________________________
ps, to Jack - Jack Roberts? You can't be Jack Roberts the climber, cause I heard he was a good guy.

Couldn't be a more different route (clean, classic single-pitch) but the discussion of Double Cross in Joshua Tree (on this site) digressed into a somewhat similar discussion, with one of the first free ascensionists suggesting that adding a bolt at the crux would contribute greatly to the safety of the route. Randy Vogel (whose opinion is worth considering, I'd think) had this to say:

"Lastly... those that know me, also know that I have never removed (chopped) a protection bolt on any route, period. I will state, however, if a bolt is placed on Double Cross, (provided it lasts long enough) I will remove it and patch the hole."

Maybe not totally relevant to this issue, but the original post made me think of it. Here's the thread It's a fun read.

Derek Lawrence wrote:

"Actually, in regards to Kor. On The Bulge, not only did he go back and add the bolt at the crux but he did it on rappel for probably the first rap placed bolt in CO..."

Derek, you are absolutely correct, Layton was telling this story last weekend. He said that after the F.A. of The Bulge, people were urging him to "go add a bolt, somebody will get hurt." He said this was his one and only rap bolt, and placing it was one of the bigger regrets he's had in over five decades of climbing. I sensed he was saying to the effect that route had been done and if you can't do it as it is then do something else. (I have not done the route and don't know if he placed a bolt or a pin and have no idea if it was the first rap placed anchor in CO).

Nate: I assume you are just trolling for attention, but will add my two cents. If it was a route I had first climbed and adding a bolt or two (or more) would make it a far better line, heck yes the bolts would probably go in.

• *Just a general reminder it is against historical tradition and considered very poor form to add bolts to other persons routes.

Aaron Martinuzzi wrote:i would say that you're a huge fu*%ing wimp.

Monomaniac wrote: Isn't the confluence of these rivers in Canyonlands NP? ...and I don't remember seeing any 450' towers there....

If you've already done it in a more bad ass style, why not keep your name strong by not adding a bolt? Ethics are yours either way in my opinion, since you own the FA.

Red Chamonix Ridge?

I have a picture of that route hanging above my desk with a "free six pack to the second ascentionist" written underneith - I guess you'll owe yourself a six-pack of your own choice. Beautiful, bold looking line!

- Edited to add: I just realized this is an old thread... really old.