The Fiend of Indian Creek meets The Friends of Indian Creek

you didn't see CO plates out there back before the guidebooks? have to call total BS on that one. Dunn, Becker, Hill, Webster, Wiggins, Coyne, Sims, Gallagher, Fowler, Achey, Grossman, etc ad nauseum apparently never climbed there. Shit, Hong went to school at Colorado College.

Doug Metcalf wrote:I guess living there for close to 20 years doesnt count huh? No, it doesn't count. The Dirtbags that decided to live there for months on end are what has fucked it all up. Example: David ("DR" what a load of crap) Bloom was one of those Dirtbags and look what his worthless, inacurate book did.

dirtbags have put up more routes in this world than any Subaru driving yupsters from CO have, I thank them for being dirty and motivated. never seen the bloom book.

mobley wrote: I find it odd that MP is allowing Millcreek to get added to the database, especially after blocking the Lost City in NY. That will be the next CO license plate parking lot near Moab.

We've been climbing at Mill Creek for years.

slim wrote:you didn't see CO plates out there back before the guidebooks? have to call total BS on that one. Dunn, Becker, Hill, Webster, Wiggins, Coyne, Sims, Gallagher, Fowler, Achey, Grossman, etc ad nauseum apparently never climbed there. Shit, Hong went to school at Colorado College.

thanks for the education but if you notice I said "not too many"

Hank Caylor wrote: We've been climbing at Mill Creek for years.

hey, me too. cool.

Mobley:never seen the bloom book

Ahh. you must be from the old school of plaques. What a day it was when your curiosity could lead you to amazing climbs. And low and behold that looks like Hong's style of plaque, or a bandito bolt. That method worked for a long time.

Hank Caylor wrote: We've been climbing at Mill Creek for years.

Do you get the frown down from the locals too when you show up without a chaperon? They especially hate it when you try to be nice.

slim wrote:you didn't see CO plates out there back before the guidebooks? have to call total BS on that one. Dunn, Becker, Hill, Webster, Wiggins, Coyne, Sims, Gallagher, Fowler, Achey, Grossman, etc ad nauseum apparently never climbed there. Shit, Hong went to school at Colorado College.

Hong still lives in Colorado, for what it is worth...

And if we were to add up all the I.C. routes first ascended by CO people Vs those of the Utah people, which way might the scale tip? Perhaps the scale has always been that there were more Colordo climbers there than Utah climbers, and as such, not that much has changed.
Denver is no further from I.C. than SLC, so in terms of population, you'd probably expect as many Coloradan there are Utah climbers.

I'm just wondering...

Oh yeah, let's count Wyoming seperatly too. Gnade/Petro/Etc...

Meanwhile, if you want to hate on people with green plates, that's fine. Just don't visit Colorado (or Utah/Wyoming). I promise I'll stay out of Connecticut! (*wink*)

Actually, the creek is an hour and a half closer to Salt Lake than it is to Denver. I had a hard time wanting to go to the creek when I could climb good wingate in the swell that was 2 hours closer and less crowded though.

"you didn't see too many plates from CO". hmm, that's not the phrase that i would substitute for "most of the plates that you saw were from CO".

doesn't dr hong drive an audi these days?

For what its worth Dove Creek, CO (where I split my time with Durango) is closer to IC than Moab.

I'm with you fellas.

Tony B wrote: Hong still lives in Colorado, for what it is worth... And if we were to add up all the I.C. routes first ascended by CO people Vs those of the Utah people, which way might the scale tip? Perhaps the scale has always been that there were more Colordo climbers there than Utah climbers, and as such, not that much has changed. Denver is no further from I.C. than SLC, so in terms of population, you'd probably expect as many Coloradan there are Utah climbers. I'm just wondering... Oh yeah, let's count Wyoming seperatly too. Gnade/Petro/Etc... Meanwhile, if you want to hate on people with green plates, that's fine. Just don't visit Colorado (or Utah/Wyoming). I promise I'll stay out of Connecticut! (*wink*)

Well, in a way, the Colorado hate is kind of justified. Not like you can equate Colorado with evil, but rather that the vast majority of Creek visitors are Coloradoans. If you can expect a constant 10% of all climbers in the Creek to be self-centered assholes whose pointless romanticization of dirtbagging, without really caring about the impact they leave, causes them to be raging douchebags then you'd expect there to be a higher population of CO douchebags than CT douchebags, simply because there are more CO visitors than CT visitors.

Unfortunately, the hate is massively misdirected. We need to be castigating ALL douchebags, not just the ones with green plates.

To be sure, the CO douchebags must shoulder more of the load than simple numbers would suggest. It rubs a lot of people the wrong way when you're constantly spraying about how rad Colorado is, when you've clearly spent a lot of time and money getting out of said state. Same goes for ex-Texans, and ex-Californians. If you really thought it was so awesome, why did you leave?

I remember being upset when I saw the first Utah plate on a climber's car! The natives had found the place!

how is it that a single state can hold so many so called "douche bags"? Face it... some people are good swell folks, and some are douche bags. None of this is limited to an arbitrary boundary on a map (unless it's texas or new jersey jk).
Everybody do your part and treat the land and other people like you'd want to be treated. Sunday School is dismissed.

Thank you Micah!

Lots of finger pointing here.

The "problem" isn't a function of what state visitors hail from and, much as we don't like to admit it, any of us that use the place qualify as douchebags to some degree because there IS impact.

Anybody see the "Green" issue of Climbing?
Check out page 72. It acknowledges that merely jamming erodes the rock but then goes on to say'what are you gonna do'?
Great attitude for "Greens"!!!

We are ALL part of the problem.

Time to start addressing it.

In the end IC is the guinea pig. There are lots of wingate canyons as good. The thing about IC is it has a paved road leading in.
(Funny thing is; the first time I went there I came over Hurrah Pass and didn't even use the paved road.)

A whole lotta bitchin and as PR said the finger always points to someone else. If you are there you are part of the problem. Furthermore:

• If you are loud your contribution is 2X
• If you camp your contribution is 2X
• If you build fires your contribution is 2X
• If you bring dogs your contribution is 4X
• If you defecate in the dirt your contribution is 10X
• If you let your dogs run loose your contribution is 10X
• If you collect wood for fires your contribution is 10X
• If you camp illegally your contribution is 20X
• If you drive cross country your contribution is 20X
• If you interfere with ranch operations your contribution is 50X
• If you ignore closures your contribution is 50X

The list goes on - feel free to add to it. The relative impacts may be debatable, but the fact remains that we all have an impact.

Now look at yourself and ask: What impact do I have?

mike1 wrote:What your thoughts about people who donate generously to the stations but prefer to not crap in a bag ? Is their nefarious crapping under cow patties redeemed by paying for the less fortunate to crap in bags ? (I hear some of these scoundrels hide in the scrub and watch the deed). BTW - It sucks they closed the creek to climbing from Nov to end of March

never did get an answer but lots to think about

1) I continue to add cash to box & hide my dirty little secret under cow patties
2) Don't feel as good about it because no bags currently at any of the stations so not helping anyone else crap in bag
3) I rarely hear of utards going to Colarado to climb. Just something to think about
4) Dirtbags are cool and I miss being one.

"Take My wife... Please take her"
Rodney Dangerfield

Piton Ron wrote:Lots of finger pointing here. The "problem" isn't a function of what state visitors hail from and, much as we don't like to admit it, any of us that use the place qualify as douchebags to some degree because there IS impact. Anybody see the "Green" issue of Climbing? Check out page 72. It acknowledges that merely jamming erodes the rock but then goes on to say'what are you gonna do'? Great attitude for "Greens"!!! We are ALL part of the problem. Time to start addressing it. In the end IC is the guinea pig. There are lots of wingate canyons as good. The thing about IC is it has a paved road leading in. (Funny thing is; the first time I went there I came over Hurrah Pass and didn't even use the paved road.)

I just puked in my mouth a little. The "Green" issue of climbing was a non-informative waste of all of our time. I didn't read much. There was nothing to be found. Climbing magazine (as always) needs to remember to stick to what it does well - PHOTOS.

As for "hand jamming causing erosion" (oh my!), I guess the question would be: who cares. Show me a canyon where hand jamming is leading to greater in-stream sediment transport (or anything else of relevance). Leaving a trail on the wall: aesthetically relevant. An access hiking trail leading to erosion: relevent. Hand jamming erosion: find a text book and some common sense.

And to echo someone else: appologies for perpetuating the dumbest thread on mp.