Falling...

Has any one ever fallen on one of those mini stoppers. I'm new to the trad game and just really wonder if those placements will hold a fall. I am a boulderer reborn, can you tell me if they will save your life. Or at least stop the fall?

i took about a 10-15 footer on a black diamond #2 nut rated at 2kN. i had a screamer attached to it and it deployed. the screamer i was using is supposed to start ripping at 2kN. so logically i figure if i didnt have the screamer it probably would not have held.

id say if you plan on using a lot of small nuts get some brass nuts. the shear strength of brass is greater than aluminum resulting in a stronger nut.

so to answer your question i guess it kind of depends. dont climb too high above them and you should be alright

I haven't personally, but talked to one of the guys at neptune who fell about 20 ft onto a #2 or #3 DMM brassie (can't remember which), saved him from groundfall after a #3 camalot pulled (irony!)

Yes, micros have and will stop a surprising fall. Screamers will stack the odds in your favor. I've not taken a fall, but I've bounced tested the hell out of them out of curiosity; I know its not a perfect test, but it simulated a small fall. Still, they are not full strength, and falling on them should not be taken lightly.

Somethings to consider about micros is that rock quality becomes an issue. A micro simply has less surface area to spread the load over, which means that the same force is applied to a smaller area of rock. This makes the rock more susceptible to breaking and the piece pulling. So, considering the rock is as important as considering the strength of the stopper itself. Sandstone is very soft and any gear will be less reliable in it than granite; micros just accentuate this fact.

Also, placing micros is trickier than a larger stopper because the range is less. The difference between a great micro placement and a crappy one can be a quarter inch of taper. Good placement just becomes more critical.

In all honesty, considering that you are just starting out with trad, you won't be on routes that require micros, and you'd probably have a hell of a time placing one on somethign where you actually needed it. This is not meant to be condescending; in my 6 years of trad, I've only placed the largest BD micro a couple times.

Cheers,
Evan

Evan1984 wrote:I've not taken a fall, but I've bounced tested the hell out of them out of curiosity; I know its not a perfect test, but it simulated a small fall.

E84 is more than correct, an aggressive well-executed bounce test can readily generate greater forces than encountered on some/many falls. Of course there are lots of variables on both ends but bottom line is a well placed micronut in good rock is very strong indeed. When I have a suspicious "nest" or my life depends on it I'll back up with a screamer, I think thats logical to regularly use. Use them in aid quite a bit till you get a good sense of what is good and what is not.

I took 2 eight footers on a BD micro #4(no screamer). It was on granite and everything held fine. Placing it was a bit of a pain and tricky to find the best placement, but I was sure glad I expended the energy to do correctly it after I took the falls. Definitely have to ensure those placements are solid or they probably won't do you much good.

I was belaying a fellow who took a 10 footer onto a #2 BD stopper. I saw him place it, but thought it was a bigger piece. When I got up to clean it, I was shocked, amazed, and thrilled that it held, as it was the only pro between us besides a manky piton. It still amazes me how well climbing gear actually works, although I wouldn't make a habit of falling on tiny pieces.

I fell 10ft onto a #1 in sandstone. The nut cut about five inches down into the rock, both the nut and rock held. I shit myself a little!
BD says "the #1 and #2 are for direct aid only". Have fun Be safe. Jim

Once I was having some "mind issues" making committing moves above small pieces so I had my friend give me about 5 feet of slack and fell with a number 1 bd micronut at my waste. I had a few pieces literally inches below it, and I don't have a use for it so I didn't care if it blew up.

It held fine, just kinked a little bit, but I straightened it back up and seems fine now.

Phil Lauffen wrote:Once I was having some "mind issues" making committing moves above small pieces so I had my friend give me about 5 feet of slack and fell with a number 1 bd micronut at my waste. I had a few pieces literally inches below it, and I don't have a use for it so I didn't care if it blew up. It held fine, just kinked a little bit, but I straightened it back up and seems fine now.

I'm sure you are aware, but just in case....

The fact that your nut "kinked" and then you straightened it back to normal does not mean that it is now just fine. In fact, it is likely that the nut is greatly weakened at the bend point, thus compromising the strength of an already weak piece of gear. If it was me, I would replace it.

J. Albers wrote: I'm sure you are aware, but just in case.... The fact that your nut "kinked" and then you straightened it back to normal does not mean that it is now just fine. In fact, it is likely that the nut is greatly weakened at the bend point, thus compromising the strength of an already weak piece of gear. If it was me, I would replace it.

Actually the funny thing is I thought about that as I was writing that entry...Luckily its not a piece I place often and depend upon. I keep it on my rack as kind of a joke.

"Look at this. Its small, huh?"

Phil Lauffen wrote: Actually the funny thing is I thought about that as I was writing that entry...Luckily its not a piece I place often and depend upon. I keep it on my rack as kind of a joke. "Look at this. Its small, huh?"

There is no time for humor. Fast and Light my friend. Unless you are carrying a spiritual burden for which you must atone...

not a micronut, but i took three pretty good whippers in a row on a 00 TCU in some soft-ass creek sandstone the other weekend; it held, though it certainly put the fear of god in me.

Phil Lauffen wrote: Actually the funny thing is I thought about that as I was writing that entry...Luckily its not a piece I place often and depend upon. I keep it on my rack as kind of a joke. "Look at this. Its small, huh?"

i believe they are not a joke, and it is safe to say, i place them on about half the routes i climb. i have falle twice on them at the gunks. placed well, they work well. i never put a screamer on one either.

I took repeated aid falls in a snowstorm once. A few pieces popped each time but the one that always held was a #2 stopper. Fairly burly experience that kind of left me shaking.

TKrosbakken wrote:id say if you plan on using a lot of small nuts get some brass nuts. the shear strength of brass is greater than aluminum resulting in a stronger nut.

ya sure about that? what kind of 'brass' are you talking about?
HBs are softer and are intended for soft rock, where an aluminum or steel one may blow the rock out. In granite however the brass will deform. i ripped one out in a whipper and sheared the corners right off. most likely due to a shitty placement though.
Now, BD swedges are a copper/steel blend which mold like the brass, but are harder.

but ultimately, as mentioned a bunch above, it comes down to the placement. my mini nut rack is a mix of different kinds (HB, BD micros, BD swedges, WC, DMM, etc) to matchfit the placement. If i dont have 100% confidence in the placement i skip it. i dont bother much with 'psychological' pro. besides, about 500 lbs will break the cables, no matter how good the placement is.

I took my first ever trad lead fall on the first 30' of the third pitch of a route. I took a nasty 10-15' drop and swung 5-10' flipping upside down, spraining my ankle and stopping 2 feet from a sizeable slabby ledge. If it weren't for the #3 BD micro I probly wouldn't be here right now as I was helmetless heading for a header.

They work, this one didn't even have a screamer.

I have another valid experience to relate. My first lead fall on aid was out in moab on an old A4 route called artist tears. I was on a time bomb trying to stem onto the next piece that I had tested but was not clipped to. The time bomb blew and I landed on a #3 or 4 hb brass offset. I really didn't think it would hold thus clipping it with a scream AID, and placing a equalized green alien and green dmm micro aluminum offset (peanut I believe) below it to hopefully keep me off my belayer. It held thankfully, as I stopped a mere 3 feet above my belayer's head.

The integrity of the rock was my biggest concern... As you can see in the pic the placment slightly grooved and put a micro fracture(in the sandstone) on the outer supporting edge of the left side of the placment.

When you really, really don't want your pro to fail, you can sometimes double or triple up on pieces. And equalize them.

Force felt at the top piece also depends on the amount of rope out, among other things.

Larry wrote:When you really, really don't want your pro to fail, you can sometimes double or triple up on pieces. And equalize them. Force felt at the top piece also depends on the amount of rope out, among other things.

definately! rarely do i place just one RP; if it Rips, then RIP.

To the original post:

Watch "E11" with Dave MacLeod.

Small falls from waist high on to a BD #4 and metolius #1... They hold aslong as there placed right and the rock is good.

Also with micro and smaller nuts you can also nest them. Which is trying to place a couple micros in the same spot and equilize them or clip them together. Then hope that one of them holds if you fall. Screamers help on small pieces.