Top Roping: A question of ethics

Went Ice Climbing this weekend - Lead up to the Top rope anchors only to find that parties had decided to opt out of climbing for a walk around to the anchors. At two different points during the day I saw this happen and and at two different times - I brought attention to the fact that there are lead climbers beneath them -

One party walked off and apparently I upset them based on what another guy said, but another party insisted on taking the anchor that my buddy was leading up to and threw the rope anyway...Then making it uncomfortable (Read Unsafe) for my buddy to complete the climb and safely anchor in...

So, after all of that comes the question(s). What is the proper way to handle this, what is the proper "etiquette" when climbing in a busy area with leaders and top ropers - either ice or rock. Is it every okay to throw a rope down on a leader?

I don't know much, but the one thing I know is guys with beards are jerks!!

Facial hair aside, I'm with you...jerk move!

It's never OK to throw ropes down on a leader. It'll always happen, and the best way to deal with it is to explain it to a "decent" person within the party. Most people are receptive to learn the "rules", but for few people, it'll never change.

I agree. It's never appropriate to throw a rope down on a lead climber.

But it's kinda in the timing. If a person scopes out a route to TR, then they must have some sense of respect for the fact that while they are walking to the top of the pitch then someone could start leading the route.

This begs the question: if I am about to set up a TR how do I "reserve" the opportunity to set up a TR?

This is a situation I've run into at Ouray before. Usually pretty common with ice climber types. Usually I have the "look before you leap" attitude toward the TR'er, talk some shit, assess safety and move on. Always good for some humor though.

I guess one way to put a "dibbs" on a climb (especially if you/they are hiking around and dropping the rope) is to leave something at the bottom... i.e. a backpack etc. This can also result in problems (especially) if the person leaves their stuff their because they want to climb it later in the day...
When they dropped the rope did your buddy have to down-climb or what?

Leaders (and solo-ists) always have right-of-way over top-ropers. In places like Ouray the local rules are that the leader should occupy the top anchor before beginning to lead. That, however, is a local situation particular to the lay-out of the ice park and doesn't apply to long single or multi-pitch routes like Lincoln due to the impracticality of occupying the anchor first and the responsibility goes back on the TR folks.

Also, at Lincoln, there's no way for a leader to know that someone is walking around to set up a TR whereas the walk-arounders can easily see down the gully to see someone coming up and should wait until the leader tops out.

The stickier question is once the leader tops out, who has right-of-way for setting up a TR for subsequent laps. In an ideal world, everyone works together and gets some laps in.

Now the more bizarre situation that I recently encountered at Lincoln was 2 parties TR-ing the FIRST pitch of the gully and refusing to let someone else solo through.

In general terms, it is a who was there first issue. I don't by the "leaders have priority" stance. Really, though, I think its a be reasonable and make everybody happy issue.

It is a leaders responsibility to ascertain that the climb is safe to lead, and, if there is a party at top prepping to drop a rope, it isn't safe to lead. The vice versa is true for a topropping group.

Any rate, though, its not cool to throw ropes on a leader.

Just my 2 cents,
Evan

Evan1984 wrote:In general terms, it is a who was there first issue. I don't by the "leaders have priority" stance. Really, though, I think its a be reasonable and make everybody happy issue. It is a leaders responsibility to ascertain that the climb is safe to lead, and, if there is a party at top prepping to drop a rope, it isn't safe to lead. The vice versa is true for a topropping group. Any rate, though, its not cool to throw ropes on a leader. Just my 2 cents, Evan

What counts as 'there'? I think it's the route, not the anchors. And, if someone is already leading a route, s/he was there first. Walking to the anchors of a route to get there before a leader you can see on route is the equivalent of cutting in line. And, in this case, cutting in line puts others at risk.

I think for a TR to lay claim to a route, they have to leave someone at the bottom to let any lead climbers know that their friends are on a walk-around to set up the TR. I both lead and TR, and I always have someone at the bottom when I'm setting up a rope (it also helps in making sure you're building your anchor in the right place).

If, for some reason, I couldn't leave someone at the base and leaders started climbing while I'm building the anchor, I would wait for them to finish, and hopefully negotiate taking turns if they want to lap. At some areas the climbers are more amenable to taking turns than at others. You just gotta play it by ear at that point.

But, yeah, you can't drop a rope over a leader. Not cool.

Really, whoever is there first will get to do the route first. I would of course like to see leaders get the right of way over topropers. They're sacking up to climb the route afterall.

A toproper throwing a rope on a leader should get punched though.

Rafe wrote: A toproper throwing a rope on a leader should get punched though.

Any toproper that is so disrespectful as to throw a rope into the face of a leader really should get punched. Afterall, getting hit with a rope coil hurts, and it is dangerous especially if you are in a sketchy placement area or an area with runout bolts.

Anthony Milano wrote:When they dropped the rope did your buddy have to down-climb or what?

They managed to drop their rope off to his right side, but when my buddy was topping out they forced him to awkwardly climb underneath their rope before he could safely anchor in -

To continue the "Claiming the Route/Anchors" question - if the leader has begun the pitch when the Top Ropers show up - isn't that claiming it?

As for the anchor sharing - if we have started the pitch - should the lead party have rights to it, even though the TRers are standing there - should the leader be forced to wait at the top until they are done occupying the set up?

I believe this issue goes beyond the rights of leaders vs. top ropers to the considerate use of a scarce resource by all climbers. It amazes me to continually see people set up a belay at the extreme right side of an ice climb, traverse 50 feet across the bottom and then lead up the left side, in effect completely blocking others from getting on a climb that has room for more than one party. If you're gonna do the left side of the Scottish gully, take the extra time and effort to set your belay below the rock buttress to the left of the flow so you'll be out the line of fire and another party can do the right side of the route. Same goes for the easy slabs at Loch Vale. If you need to set a top rope at a popular area to practice technique, do it on a weekday or use a shorter flow off to the side - not the top pitch of a popular multi-pitch route. It would be nice if there was limitless ice convenient to the Denver metro or only a few of us were trying to use it - but that isn't the case. Rather than try to establish ethical standards for who gets exclusive use of the ice, I think we should be thinking of how we can maximize access to all who want to hack at it.

This happens ALL the time in the Springs area. It's got so bad that the only way to avoid these situations is to start so early (before sunrise), and hope that your topping out before the top ropers show up. When the top ropers show up, they are going to camp out all day. Ever consider ice climbing at night? Try it!

Sounds like another good weekend at Lincoln; sorry I missed this one.

How was the driving by the way?

Buff Johnson wrote:Sounds like another good weekend at Lincoln; sorry I missed this one. How was the driving by the way?

Nothing on the pass on Saturday. Sunday morning had some fresh snow 4"-6", but nothing to talk about.

5.5hrs from Lincoln to Golden - Worst traffic I have ever seen on 70 - Closed it and diverted after Hwy6 - Crazy.

Kevin Craig wrote: The stickier question is once the leader tops out, who has right-of-way ...?

It's always the one with the most effective & imaginative way to use their tool.

Buff Johnson wrote:How was the driving by the way?

the drive back was more dangerous than the climbing.

I've had people do similar to me when climbing in Rock Canyon in Provo UT. It is definitely NEVER okay to TR a route someone is already on. Not only is it extremely rude, it is unsafe. I am 100% for TR routes and other convenience things to help climbers (especially beginners), but people need to show some common sense and some respect for other climbers.

If you're going to TR a route and want to make sure no one else takes it, leave someone at the bottom of the route. I usually only TR when i'm taking some beginners climbing, so i just leave them at the bottom and tell them to reserve the route we're on.