"Across from Bihedral" bolt-a-thon

As I've been driving up and down Boulder Canyon for the past few months I've noticed the massive cleaning/bolting effort going on at this crag (Across from The Bihedral aka Cascade Crag), and wondered when the routes would pop up on Mountain Project. It looks like the bolters/first ascenionists aren't taking credit for the routes, and Leo Paik had to post them.

Unfortunately, Leo also points out that that several routes already existed here, and have been retrobolted. As best I can tell, the routes were already posted on MP, so it's hard to say that no one knew about them.

Anyone care to take credit for these routes? We don't need another bolt war, but also need to draw the line somewhere.

Leo called most of these pitches one star. Maybe they are better, and he was just pissed about the whole crag (understandable). I'd hate to think someone trashed this much vegetation for a cliff full of 1 star routes. I'm no tree-hugger, and recognize that new routes will kill some lichen. What I don't understand is the need to scour an entire crag clean. Take a look at some of Leo's pictures, and then go look at the crag now to see what I mean. But this is getting off the main point.

I don't understand the need to bolt everything that can be climbed. But I do respect the right of a first ascenionist to put up a route in the style they choose (within limits--chipping is pretty universally regarded as unacceptable). The problem here is that some first ascenionists had already been to the area. If people want to bolt lines between these, so be it. But leave the established routes alone.

I'd hope that the bolters will acknowledge their mistake and remove the bolts (and disguise the holes) from the established routes. This doesn't need to blow up into a bunch of name calling and sport-vs-trad. Just recognize that you made a mistake, and go fix it.

Thanks

-Rich

Bump.

Come on. Someone knows who put these routes up.

Is retrobolting okay on the Front Range now?

It sucks but I think Colorado is one of the only states I've been in where people bolt obvious trad routes or retro routes without any discussion with anybody. BoCan and Shelf are prime examples. Bolted cracks, overbolting, crappy bolting.

The excuses are pretty lame. It's safer, it's easier, more people will climb it, it's already a sport crag, it's mostly a sport climb, which is all a bunch of crap.

For the most part I think BoCan has pretty good bolting with respect for traditional ethics but the convenience crowd has got their claws in this state pretty deep. I'm not against bolting by any means, but climbing is not an after school workout for people with no tolerance for risk or adventure. A lot of Colorado climbers seem to think otherwise.

What I know of the history on this tiny crag:

~10 ago, I wandered over there when I saw a bit of ice and climbed it. No evidence of activity at this cliff.

8+ years ago (2001), 3 of us wandered over there to climb a few short trad lines. I posted them under The Bihedral including photos, since we didn't know if anyone had named the crag previously. We called the crag, Across from The Bihedral.

~2 years later, no one had commented, so I entered a subarea (2003) with the name we used that first rock day & moved the 3 routes to the subarea.

Recently, I've been seeing activity at the crag. Then, I went over there last month. I was told the routes had been up for a while and the FAs of the bolted routes were aware of the trad lines and were leaving the trad lines alone. The crag looked nearly unrecognizable. So, we wandered over this week to check out the lines starting from the right until I had to go to work. Sadly, we found our lines retrobolted and nearly all the vegetation (lichen, bushes, and trees) removed from the cliff. I posted what we knew of the lines and included requests to please remove the retrobolts. I've checked the other FAs of trad lines. No permission for retrobolting was given.

Now, I've been informed by multiple folks there is a "guide" to the crag, there is a new name for the crag, and that one of the developers is a frequent visitor to MP.com who has logged on since these updates & postings. I've emailed the individual requesting an explanation for the retrobolting. No response yet.

Retrobolts are lame! Hope someone takes responsibility.

I'm not sure about this, but isn't removal of vegetation illegal in Colorado? Doesn't matter, that much destruction of mother nature for our own pleasure is just obscene.

Booooo!
When will BC have enough chossy overbolted lines?
Why do people invest their time and money in scouring that canyon for more sport lines? I have climbed a couple FA's (no fixed gear) and done some of the little known trad lines in BC, and you know what I realized? They sucked, there was a reason nobody goes to those areas. You could spend your entire life climbing in BC and not do all of the existing routes. Why does it need more?
Please stop!

I heard it was Stallone looking to work his bolt gun technique for the upcoming sequel:

Ranger Gabe Walker -- This Time, We Play for Real

Jack Bauer guest stars in the hunt for terrorist climbers dispatching routes in Boulder threatening the release of their haul bag...In it, a nuke! And, it's aimed at Pearl Street!!

"I need a zip-line, we're outta time!!"

I have always considered myself a TRAD climber. In fact as recent as two years ago, I used to resist sport climbing at all costs. Keep in mind that I am a moderate....middle of the road climber. I top out in both Trad and Sport in the 5.10 range (leading). I blame my lack of skill on job/life demands. Basically with each passing year, I struggle to find enough hours in the day to climb as much as I would like. I spent my first seven years climbing in Eldo but frankly ran out of stuff to do (there are not that many moderate 5.8-5.10a routes)......so I started spending more time in BC which is when I was forced to experience more sport routes which I actually began to enjoy. For several years, I looked at this crag (Cascade) and never saw a person on it.

As some of the others have commented, this crag is seeing some heavy usage. I personally visited it over and over from June through July and I always met others having a great time on the routes.

I have looked at this crag myself for the last ten years and always wanted to dabble on it but it did not look inviting or safe. There were loose rocks everywhere and frankly, it did not look like anyone ever climbed on (of course I did not walk to the base to get a close look). For someone of my level, I would NOT jump on dirty rock (moss covered) that was so run out as these routes push me out of my comfort zone even with the current safety of so many bolts.

I DO WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE that if there were original pre-established routes, they should not be retro-bolted without the permission of the first ascentionist I am curious if it was clear to the new developers that there were routes in existence as I believe they would want to give credit and respect where due. I see that Leo had his posting but I am not sure I would have seen "Across from the Bihedral."

Having said all of this, I just think it has been great to have so many 5.9 - 5.10 sport routes to play on. I imagine that the people that recently put up the latest bolts spent a lot of time, money and energy making us a playground. My gut reaction is that I am grateful to have some heavily bolted, easily accessible routes for those days that I only get two hours and I want to cram a few climbs in. It sure appears that more people are visiting the crag which has to further spread out the crowds. Keep in mind that as I say all of this, I am the same person that loves to go to Kenya and spend ten days hiking deep in just to do one route.....or going to the Dolomites and doing long break neck early approaches etc....

The great thing about Boulder is that we have so much to choose from. I still prefer a five pitch trad route.....but I love to know that these little sport crags exist too. I would love to see more of both.....new sport crags and more trad routes.....and while we are on the subject more ice routes. I love our backyard and all the diversity.

Sounds like a fun crag. Been a while since I have been to BC. This will be good excuse to get back down there and have some fun. Hopefully the retro issues can get resolved without another internet flame fest. No need for that.

I have been to some of the more recently developed areas in Boulder Canyon and have always left wondering why in the hell anyone would have taken the time and effort to bolt some of the lines that have been put up. Is it just peoples ego's getting the better of them and bolting for the fact that they think they are creating a legacy that will outlast them or do they think that these lines are really worth climbing instead of the hundreds if not thousands of other high quality climbs in the canyon? The only benefit I see of bolting crap lines is that it spreads out the crowds which is a weak excuse.

As for retrobolting established trad lines - in North Carolina they confiscate your bolt gun for that kind of nonsense. It should be done around here too.

I have run into two of the developers of that crag while tromping around in the area along the stream. It was July, I think. They were still working in the area and I left it to them. I went back in late August or maybe September and ran into one of them again and climbed a handful of routes. One or two was really pretty good. One had nothing to reccomend it at all, and the rest were OK. I was given a copy of the 'guide' for the area by said developer and asked not to post info on the routes until the people were done cleaning up their hardware and such. I agreed. Why not?

I wasn't offended by any of the routes I climbed. A few were pretty good and the rest were mileage. I though the routes were better than some of the stuff that's been bolted lately in that they were continuous climbs, not short boulder moves between ledges. I've certainly seen worse routes bolted. These, for the most part, had nothing remarkable about them, which is to say on merit alone that there was nothing really wrong with them either. As for the cleaning, well, I harbor no disillusion that the moss growing on that 70' cliff is different than the moss growing on the 30 rock pile up and to the right of it. Thusly, I am not concerned about the world shriveling and blowing off if one cliff of it (or 4) is cleaned off of it. People seem to prefer clean routes, so if it is to be bolted, it might as well be cleaned. At least that's my point of view. So I guess the question is if it is worth bolting? That's the platitude, ignoring for a moment the issue of retrobolting.

I had no idea at the time that any of the routes were retrobolted. I only figured that out later, when I read the info that Leo Paik posted a few weeks ago, at which point I contacted him and suggested that he contact the people developing the routes. For what it's worth, in my interactions with 2 of the F.A.ists in question they were at no time rude with me. Actually they were downright polite. They clean routes more than would I, but that's up to them when it is there route.

As for the "values" arguement here, well that's up to you. You'll just as soon change someone's religeon as climbing ethics. The best you can do is try to get them to adhere to some community standards that are not too extreme. I'll grouse about close bolts (when I find them as such, but nothing here seemed egregious) and what not to make my opinion known and give feedback to the developer, but it's just a vote, not a mandate. In short, it is his route. As for retrobolts- well, I guess that was someone else's route, and I believe he's spoken.

For what it's worth. I think all retrobolts should be removed by the bolter. If not, I would agree with Leo's actions if he decided to remove them if it can clearly be established that they are retros and the bolters would not do it. I just don't think he should have to end up with that responsibility. It wasn't him that violated a long-held standard.

is it possible to know the nature of anything? every statement can be countered by information you have yet to glean. since no assertion is more valid than any other, we must submit to a suspension of judgment. in terms of value the human situation suggest that man withdraw into himself and reflect.

Leo, did you ever hear back from the person who placed these bolts? Any hope of a simple solution?

I'm glad this thread hasn't turned into a flame war, as I don't think that is constructive. As I said before, I may not agree with the style of the routes being put in (too much cleaning, too many bolts, etc.) but I respect the right of the first ascenionists to choose their style. In fact, I'll go so far as to defend their right to do so. But this cuts both ways. If you want people to respect your style of first ascent, you have to respect other people's.

I'm still hoping that the grag developers will do the mature thing and remove the bolts they placed on established routes. This burden should not fall on Leo. That being said, if they aren't willing to do the work, they should at least publicly condone the removal of these bolts. I'll go take the bolts out, but I'm not going to do it until the developers have agreed that this is the appropriate course of action. The last thing I'd want to see is a bolt war--I go pull them out, they get mad and put them back in, etc.

Come on guys, we all know who's doing this. He's just not posting these "routes" like he did with another obscure rock he "developed" in the canyon last year.

Where is Bob D when we need him to bolt someones ass???

SAL wrote:Where is Bob D when we need him to bolt someones ass???

clackmon wrote: thank you i'm getting sick of hearing people defend this kind of development by saying how fun these crags are.

Tony B wrote:I have run into the developers of that crag while tromping around in the area along the stream...At least that's my point of view...As for the "values" arguement here, well that's up to you...I just don't think he should have to end up with that responsibility.

Izza wrote:...in North Carolina they confiscate your bolt gun for that kind of nonsense. It should be done around here too.

SAL wrote:Where is Bob D when we need him to bolt someones ass???

Right on Clackmon. I really doubt some of these "developers" could stomach the run outs on 40 year old routes say like, "Hike with Ludwig Dude." The canyon has been trashed. I will say though Bob has put some good routes. The others, junk.